Solve my trem problem pleeeeeese !!

northern_guit

Hey guys, I know there'll be a clever thing out there who can help me before there's a guitar shaped hole in my window. The problem is this, if I depress my trem arm all is good but when I lift it, it stays at a higher pitch so of course hopelessly out of tune. I can actually push it into three different positions it's that bad !! I've had it apart, thoroughly cleaned it, re-drilled the six holes, rubbed away any burrs, tried different springs and in different positions. I've done everything I can think of and I can't even claim to have slightly improved it. What am I missing ? It's a great guitar spoilt by this situation. Any help or advice would be hugely appreciated !! Cheers, Paul

stickyfiddle

Assuming it's not a floyd, it'll be the strings sticking at the nut. It's always the nut.

northern_guit

Sorry, should have pointed out this is a vintage style Strat trem. Cheers sticky, I'll re-cut it and see what happens.

ICBM

stickyfiddle said:

Assuming it's not a floyd, it'll be the strings sticking at the nut. It's always the nut.

No it isn't .

Strings sticking in the opposite tuning direction from the last trem movement: nut

Strings sticking in the same tuning direction as the last trem movement: bridge

northern_guit said:

Sorry, should have pointed out this is a vintage style Strat trem. Cheers sticky, I'll re-cut it and see what happens.

No - it's the bridge.

Check that the springs aren't rubbing on the wood round the back. If the springs are in a 'fan', put them straight!

If it's not that, it must still be some sort of friction at the pivot screws, which probably means they're out of line with each other slightly, or they're adjusted either too tight or too slack. If they're just right, the bridge *should* pivot smoothly on the screws without sliding up and down. If they're too tight the bridge will lever itself down the posts (by pressing on the underside of the screw heads) as you bend the arm down, and then lever itself against the body when you pull up, which will cause it to stop in more than one position with a resulting tuning problem.

If for whatever reason you can't get it not to do this, you need a new bridge.

Contact Andy Preston at Wudtone and ask .

stickyfiddle

@ICBM Ah- yes, I had it backwards. Still, with most tuning problems it's the nut

This is why I like Bigsbys and hardtails and bugger all else!

ICBM

stickyfiddle said:

@ICBM Ah- yes, I had it backwards. Still, with most tuning problems it's the nut

This is why I like Bigsbys and hardtails and bugger all else!

I missed one bit out too:

Strings sticking randomly out of tune or in different directions: nut, except for on Bigsbys/Jazzmaster etc trems with a separate bridge, where it can be the bridge saddles.

GuitarMonkey

ICBM said:

 If the springs are in a 'fan', put them straight!

Why do people do that? Put them in a fan I mean. I always reattach them straight.

ICBM

GuitarMonkey said:

Why do people do that? Put them in a fan I mean. I always reattach them straight.

Because it's easier to hook them on at the claw end if you're not trying to jam your fingers up against the wall of the cavity. Presumably some name players or celebrity techs started doing it years ago and it became thought of as a 'cool' way. As I'm sure you know it causes tuning trouble because the two outer springs have to pivot slightly on their mounting when the trem is used and they can stick. I always set them straight too.

The other thing that's totally bogus but is still occasionally recommended is to set the claw at an angle "to compensate for the higher tension in the bass strings" - firstly the bass strings are not under much more (if any) tension than the trebles, and secondly it would make no difference anyway since all the springs are connected to the same bridge block which can only move as a single unit - hence the only thing that matters is the sum of the spring tensions, not the individual ones.

GuitarMonkey

ICBM said:

The other thing that's totally bogus but is still occasionally recommended is to set the claw at an angle "to compensate for the higher tension in the bass strings" - firstly the bass strings are not under much more (if any) tension than the trebles, and secondly it would make no difference anyway since all the springs are connected to the same bridge block which can only move as a single unit - hence the only thing that matters is the sum of the spring tensions, not the individual ones.

Quite. Carl Verheyen needs a firm talking to.

stickyfiddle

ICBM said:

GuitarMonkey said:

Why do people do that? Put them in a fan I mean. I always reattach them straight.

Because it's easier to hook them on at the claw end if you're not trying to jam your fingers up against the wall of the cavity. 

Don't people put the loop end on first then use needle pliers to get the pin in the hole? That's how I've always done it!

ICBM

stickyfiddle said:

Don't people put the loop end on first then use needle pliers to get the pin in the hole? That's how I've always done it!

No, they usually do it the other way with just their fingers.

Fender used to recommend using a small flat-blade screwdriver to lever the loop over the claw hook. There was a diagram showing how on the packet of two extra springs you used to get with a new Strat.

stickyfiddle

ICBM said:

stickyfiddle said:

Don't people put the loop end on first then use needle pliers to get the pin in the hole? That's how I've always done it!

No, they usually do it the other way with just their fingers.

Fender used to recommend using a small flat-blade screwdriver to lever the loop over the claw hook. There was a diagram showing how on the packet of two extra springs you used to get with a new Strat.

Mind. Blown. 

GuitarMonkey

ICBM said:

Fender used to recommend using a small flat-blade screwdriver to lever the loop over the claw hook. There was a diagram showing how on the packet of two extra springs you used to get with a new Strat.

Yes, it's easy that way. You just put the screwdriver through the loop in the spring add use the claw as a pivot point for tip of the screwdriver to stretch the spring and allow it to slide down the blade into place.

northern_guit

Cheers guys,  so so appreciate the advice, will be giving this a go tonight !!

maltingsaudio

ICBM said

The other thing that's totally bogus but is still occasionally recommended is to set the claw at an angle "to compensate for the higher tension in the bass strings" - firstly the bass strings are not under much more (if any) tension than the trebles, and secondly it would make no difference anyway since all the springs are connected to the same bridge block which can only move as a single unit - hence the only thing that matters is the sum of the spring tensions, not the individual ones.

Actually I don't quite agree with you on this totally. extreme angles on the claw are a no no but when fitting a new floyd or trem my procedure is to set everyhting flat springs in a straight line etc fit the new strings and stretch in then tune. You quite often find that no matter how hard you try when you tune from top down that having checked the Bass is in tune the top goes slightly out, at this point a quick adjust of the treble screw holding the claw watching what is happening to the top E string on a tuner will pull everything into tune

ICBM

maltingsaudio said:

Actually I don't quite agree with you on this totally. extreme angles on the claw are a no no but when fitting a new floyd or trem my procedure is to set everyhting flat springs in a straight line etc fit the new strings and stretch in then tune. You quite often find that no matter how hard you try when you tune from top down that having checked the Bass is in tune the top goes slightly out, at this point a quick adjust of the treble screw holding the claw watching what is happening to the top E string on a tuner will pull everything into tune

In that case doing the same to the bass side spring will do the same - or half as much to each.

It's simple mechanics - all the springs are attached to the same two rigid units at both ends, so the individual spring tension on one side or the other *cannot* matter. For it to do so the block would have to be able to move differently on the treble side to the bass, and it can't. The only thing that matters is the sum of all the spring forces. It could be one single spring in the middle, if you could find a stiffer one, and it would make no difference.

maltingsaudio

Yes adjusting the bass side will do the same, what we are talking about is spring tension. flex and movement which whilst the components being metal shouldn't the fixing posts being fixed to wood can and the what I would call turning moments but probably not quite the right term the geometry of the trems knife edge  against the post and the pull of the spring on that exerted from a distance below   . This does of course refer to a two post mounting system for a trem, if its six screws the room for movemnt should be virtually neglible. So if you put one spring in say on the bass side of a two mounting post trem the treble side is going to be in all sorts of problems, perhaps less if you are using the six screw fixing system.

Deijavoo

In some ways I'm glad I'm not the only one. 

"Some". 

ThePrettyDamned

maltingsaudio said:

Yes adjusting the bass side will do the same, what we are talking about is spring tension. flex and movement which whilst the components being metal shouldn't the fixing posts being fixed to wood can and the what I would call turning moments but probably not quite the right term the geometry of the trems knife edge  against the post and the pull of the spring on that exerted from a distance below   . This does of course refer to a two post mounting system for a trem, if its six screws the room for movemnt should be virtually neglible. So if you put one spring in say on the bass side of a two mounting post trem the treble side is going to be in all sorts of problems, perhaps less if you are using the six screw fixing system.

My old Floyd had them set equal and I never had any tuning issues at all.  I think the angled thing comes from rockers being lazy setting up their guitar and leaving the back off, then it caught on.

andypwudtone

northern_guit said:

 who can help me before there's a guitar shaped hole in my window.  Any help or advice would be hugely appreciated !! Cheers, Paul

Hi there,

First it isn't your fault! The basic design of the original is flawed and you are experiencing exactly what everyone experiences with these bridges in differing levels depending on set up and or the envelope of trem action they use when playing.  Apologies for lengthy post ( and webpage product extracts ) but with the help of a couple of diagrams hopefully this will explain why, the problems you are experiencing occur, and how we can definitely help.  

Design flaw in the original plate.

When set up as intended, the original vintage plate operates with two pivot points, A and  B shown on the diagram above. When tilted point B has to slide down the bearing screws and then back up again. The problem is the force created by string tension is being applied through this sliding pivot point B, which, due to friction, doesn’t always return to the same stable position and correct pitch.

The Wudtone CP (constant pivot) design

The design enables the bridge to pivot on the bearing screws at point A. This pivot point remains constant because recesses machined into the top surface of the plate provide relief so that the pivot point A does not need to slide up and down the bearing screws as the trem is used.  eliminates the cause of wear and tear, but more importantly completely fixes the tuning problems guitarists experience with the original plates. The arc between the two green arrows on the underside of the plate (B) also creates a constant connection with the body of the guitar for maximum vintage tone and sustain. 

these are extracts from a page on our site here, http://www.wudtone.com/2012/03/22/wudtone-fpp-bridge-plate/  there are other differences,  features which maximise the body connection and subsequent resonance / tone. 

Confident this will put you in whammy bar heaven.

If you have any question please do not hesitate to get in touch.

kind regards

 

ICBM

maltingsaudio said:

So if you put one spring in say on the bass side of a two mounting post trem the treble side is going to be in all sorts of problems

No it isn't! Or not if that one spring has enough tension to hold the bridge correctly. As long as the total tension between the claw and the block is the right amount, it does not matter at all where on the block it pulls. The block is rigid and cannot bend sideways, so a pull at *any* point on it will have the same effect - any movement at one end is the same as the movement at the other end. This is exactly why setting the claw at an angle to create "different" tensions on each side is wrong.

Try it - take a typical 3-spring setup and put them all on the bass side, leaving the two treble-side slots empty. It will work just fine.