Solve my trem problem pleeeeeese !!

northern_guit

You're all very kind, thank you so much.!!!

Headphones

You may also wish to check that the springs aren't fouling the back plate, I've come across this on numerous two post bridges rather than vintage, but it may be worth a check.

maltingsaudio

ICBM said:

maltingsaudio said:

So if you put one spring in say on the bass side of a two mounting post trem the treble side is going to be in all sorts of problems

No it isn't! Or not if that one spring has enough tension to hold the bridge correctly. As long as the total tension between the claw and the block is the right amount, it does not matter at all where on the block it pulls. The block is rigid and cannot bend sideways, so a pull at *any* point on it will have the same effect - any movement at one end is the same as the movement at the other end. This is exactly why setting the claw at an angle to create "different" tensions on each side is wrong.

Try it - take a typical 3-spring setup and put them all on the bass side, leaving the two treble-side slots empty. It will work just fine.

Correct if the total tension is constant, which it never is due to elasticity of the non fixed parts, and yes I have done it practically. I would add that two post  trems are more prone to this as opposed to six screws

andypwudtone

ICBM said:

If it's not that, it must still be some sort of friction at the pivot screws, which probably means they're out of line with each other slightly, or they're adjusted either too tight or too slack. If they're just right, the bridge *should* pivot smoothly on the screws without sliding up and down. If they're too tight the bridge will lever itself down the posts (by pressing on the underside of the screw heads) as you bend the arm down, and then lever itself against the body when you pull up, which will cause it to stop in more than one position with a resulting tuning problem.

If for whatever reason you can't get it not to do this, you need a new bridge.

Contact Andy Preston at Wudtone and ask .

@ICBM Thank you for the mention and pls don't get upset with me but again I have to disagree ( which I hope you take in good faith) with your statement above. 

If the screw setting is adjusted as you say, to leave room to pivot on the screws without sliding down ( this will need a gap between the bottom of the domed heads and the top surface of the plate) . This same gap will allow, when you pull up, the plate slide up the screws as the bridge levers itself against the body . Once that has happened the angle of the plate at the resting position has changed and so tuning is going to be affected. As soon as you press the bar down again it is going to slide down the screws again. Hence the difficulties guitarists experience.

In summary to @northern_guit , there is no magical, screw setting or any other tricks with springs/nuts setups to solve this problem. The original plate always works in the same way because of the design flaw and it always delivers the same outcome. Guitarists either get used to living with it, as a compromise in how they play their guitar, or they get a product that is more fit for purpose and fixes it. @travisthedog ( are you still around here ) get one of ours @Drbob bought and he popped a few comments on theguitargrounds here http://theguitargrounds.co.uk/index.php?topic=7197.msg70825#msg70825 .

We have loads going over to the USA with John Bolin ( Bolin Guitars) fitting to an Stype for the Steve Miller band this Autumn.  

ICBM

andypwudtone said:

@ICBM Thank you for the mention and pls don't get upset with me but again I have to disagree ( which I hope you take in good faith) with your statement above. 

If the screw setting is adjusted as you say, to leave room to pivot on the screws without sliding down ( this will need a gap between the bottom of the domed heads and the top surface of the plate) . This same gap will allow, when you pull up, the plate slide up the screws as the bridge levers itself against the body . Once that has happened the angle of the plate at the resting position has changed and so tuning is going to be affected. As soon as you press the bar down again it is going to slide down the screws again. Hence the difficulties guitarists experience.

I do take it in good faith, but I will let you watch this again .

[Video hosting account expired]

No movement on the posts, and no contact with the body either.

I do admit that it isn't always possible to get them to work like this - I'm not even sure why. If not, and the bridge just won't behave itself, your bridge is definitely the solution. (As it may be for northern_guit.)

I'm just not convinced it's necessary if you can get the bridge to work right.

OilCityPickups

I'm just getting 'this video cannot be played because the file is corrupt' 

andypwudtone

But the bridge in the video is actually going up and down those bearing screws like bride's nightie, by design flaw, it has no other option. 

ICBM

andypwudtone said:

But the bridge in the video is actually going up and down those bearing screws like bride's nightie, by design flaw, it has no other option. 

No, it isn't!! Just watch it carefully again - it's absolutely clear what's happening. It baffles me why you can't (or don't want to?) see it. The bridgeplate is pivoting on the back edge of the tops of the screw holes, around a point about half a mm below the screw heads, and it stays there. It does *not* move up and down. It's neither touching the underside of the screw heads or the body, and it stays perfectly in tune. It may *just* touch the screw heads at the most extreme down-bend, but no more than that. There is a clear gap between the bridge and the body at all times.

It's not true that it has no other option other than to move up and down - *if* the bridge screws are adjusted too tight, which is the most common set-up mistake, you would be right because the bridge would alternately press against the screws and the body - but not if it's set properly with just enough space to allow it to move freely. I do agree that there are some bridges which for whatever reason just don't want to stay put, yes - for those you may need a more positive system, like yours. The PRS bridge which simply has a groove around each screw to provide a positive pivot point works perfectly too.

I don't disagree that your bridge is a better engineering solution! Just simply that in most cases you can set up a standard bridge so that it isn't really necessary.

I'm not going to comment on this any more. I've posted a clear proof of the way a properly-set-up Strat bridge works and that's it. Anyone can watch it and form their own opinion.

Not sure why TheGuitarWeasel can't open the file, sorry.

mike_l

Ref the spring claw being at an angle, mine are slightly, as I adjust one screw at a time. It's never more than 1/8th of a screw turn difference though.

 

andypwudtone

ICBM said:

andypwudtone said:

But the bridge in the video is actually going up and down those bearing screws like bride's nightie, by design flaw, it has no other option. 

No, it isn't!! Just watch it carefully again - it's absolutely clear what's happening. It baffles me why you can't (or don't want to?) see it. The bridgeplate is pivoting on the back edge of the tops of the screw holes, around a point about half a mm below the screw heads, and it stays there. It does *not* move up and down. It's neither touching the underside of the screw heads or the body, and it stays perfectly in tune. It may *just* touch the screw heads at the most extreme down-bend, but no more than that. There is a clear gap between the bridge and the body at all times.

It's not true that it has no other option other than to move up and down - *if* the bridge screws are adjusted too tight, which is the most common set-up mistake, you would be right because the bridge would alternately press against the screws and the body - but not if it's set properly with just enough space to allow it to move freely. I do agree that there are some bridges which for whatever reason just don't want to stay put, yes - for those you may need a more positive system, like yours. The PRS bridge which simply has a groove around each screw to provide a positive pivot point works perfectly too.

I don't disagree that your bridge is a better engineering solution! Just simply that in most cases you can set up a standard bridge so that it isn't really necessary.

I'm not going to comment on this any more. I've posted a clear proof of the way a properly-set-up Strat bridge works and that's it. Anyone can watch it and form their own opinion.

Not sure why TheGuitarWeasel can't open the file, sorry.

Oh dear ,  All your video is doing is continuing to mislead you. This diagram 

shows you why the bridge, as is happening in your video has no choice other than to go up and down those screws like a brides nightie. Others on Music Radar tried to help you understand that with the small movements involved, hidden under the heads of the screws, your video doesn't help you see this in operation. Sorry to be playing play ping pong with this but the engineering principle is clear. It pivots on Point A and Point B, in the diagram and cannot do anything else.  The video ( if you could zoom in and see the points of contact with the bearing screws) is actually proof they slide up and down. 

The PRS system of grooved screws is a suitable way to deal with this problem, but the disadvantage is that, like with a two post system, the bridge plate is then disconnected from the body of the guitar. The good thing about an original vintage plate is the dynamics / tone delivered, which many guitarists prefer, because it is actually connected to the body of the guitar. That is why the Wudtone CP plate is also connected to the body in the same way as an original plate but with engineering to eliminate the flaw causing the tuning problems.  

re your comment "in most cases you can set up a standard bridge so that it isn't really necessary." 

Across a group of guitarists ( do the research and ask on a few forums)  you will find, in most cases, guitarists with original vintage trems don't use them, they usually have them slightly decked because they don't want to risk tuning problems. I would guess from what I have seen well over 90%. 

In any case, if a guitarist wants to enjoy exploring a full envelope of a trem action, whilst being confident the guitar won't be put out of tune, the original plate, was, has always been and still is, simply unfit for that purpose. 

  

GuitarMonkey

I've always understood a vintage tremolo to pivot on point C (below)

It's not a knife edge tremolo like the 2-point versions or a PRS tremolo.

frankus

andypwudtone said:

going up and down ... like bride's nightie, by design flaw,

that's not a design flaw!

impmann

I've kept out of this discussion til now but feel I must step in - ICBM and I don't agree often (hello mate) but on this instance I do.

Of my friends that own standard Strats (ie no locking trem etc) all of them have the trem set up for use. And it *IS* a truth that you can set a Strat trem up to stay in tune reliably - something that you seem to disagree with, Andy. Proof of this - David Gilmour... further proof, intro to Sorrow - always played on a Strat with a standard trem and non-locking heads. Does it go out of tune? Nope... and I have seen him many times play that...

I don't disagree (nor does my learned friend) that yours is a nicely engineered trem, but I will not have it that Leo's design doesn't work or that 90% of guitarists don't use them because of that. A great many guitarists won't use a trem as it doesn't fit their playing style - reliability doesn't even feature in that.

The original plate is NOT unfit for purpose - that is BS, mate.

ICBM

GuitarMonkey said:

I've always understood a vintage tremolo to pivot on point C (below)

It's not a knife edge tremolo like the 2-point versions or a PRS tremolo.

Yes, it is a knife edge pivot exactly like a 2-post and it does *not * pivot on the body at point C - the forces are identical in both cases - it doesn't even touch the body there if its set up right. (Assuming you can open the file) have a look at the video. You will see that the bridge is never in contact with the wood there and actually lifts up and away from it as the arm is pushed down.

Here's a screen shot if you can't open the video:

http://theangelconversations.com/pics/Bridge.jpg

You should also be able to see that the plate is not *quite* touching the underside of the screw heads.

andypwudtone said:

Oh dear ,  All your video is doing is continuing to mislead you. This diagram 

shows you why the bridge, as is happening in your video has no choice other than to go up and down those screws like a brides nightie. Others on Music Radar tried to help you understand that with the small movements involved, hidden under the heads of the screws, your video doesn't help you see this in operation. Sorry to be playing play ping pong with this but the engineering principle is clear. It pivots on Point A and Point B, in the diagram and cannot do anything else.  The video ( if you could zoom in and see the points of contact with the bearing screws) is actually proof they slide up and down. 

Sorry, that's wrong.

I will have to reply to this because your diagram still assumes that the bridge screws are set too tight. That's the fundamental mistake you're making and why you can't see what's right in front of your own eyes (assuming you're even looking) in my video.

The head of the screw is set higher, so point B is slightly further down the screw shaft and there is no contact at point A, let alone it "pivoting" there - nor at GuitarMonkey's point C, where there is *clearly* no contact in my video. The pivot point is against the side of the screw shaft, where all the force (which is parallel to the strings and springs) is transferred. This is no different from a two-post or PRS-type bridge where the posts are deliberately grooved. You don't need any screw heads touching the plate there, and you don't here.

I'm not stupid and I can not only see what's happening in my video - I've looked at it closely dozens of times to try to see what you claim, and it's simply not happening - but I have also very closely looked at the bridge in reality using a torch and there is *no* contact between the plate and the underside of the screw heads except on an extreme divebomb which I would not use in practice.

I'm not trying to sell anything or stop you selling a product, which I agree is well-engineered and is an improvement over the original. (Just not a *necessary* one in most cases.)

I'm just pointing out to you how the bridge moves *if it's adjusted correctly*. There is no design flaw in the original mechanism other than allowing too much flexibility for people to set it wrong!

That is all. I'm not going to say any more (promise!).

stickyfiddle

I'm another in agreement in ICBM. I have my strat's trem set slightly floating, with the heads of the screws just slightly clear of the baseplate, pivoting at "point B" relative to the plate. 

In the system as Leo designed it is that the plate sits under the screw heads but at a slight angle, and that the whole thing floats and piovts around point B not touching the screwheads or the body at any point.

Angle is exaggerated here for clarity:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c90/stickyfiddle/Trem_zps7152252f.png

andypwudtone

With all due respect the drawing is what it is. There is nothing wrong with it. 

We can argue till we are blue in the face, about set up, ie how close to have the screws to the top of the plate ( that is really all we are now debating right?) 

BUT, if as you suggested "The head of the screw is set higher, so point B is slightly further down the screw shaft" then point B then has room to slide up, when you pull up on the whammy bar. Oh shit angle has changed and so has the tuning! You press the bar down  and OH shit it slides down the screws again to where is was.! Angle has changed and tuning has changed again.  

Does this sound familiar in the context of the problems @northern_guit referred to when he started this topic?

Yes guitarists, Gilmour, Blackmore,Henderson have developed playing styles, set ups, compromises to work around it and not everyone will accept that it is flawed by design from an engineering principle point of view. 

Leo Fender, knew it was (at G&L he tried to re-invent something better), majority of guitarists, I think agree. 

Folks keep kicking off topics on forums because they get fed up with the tuning problems and ask for help. 

maltingsaudio

stickyfiddle said:

I'm another in agreement in ICBM. I have my strat's trem set slightly floating, with the heads of the screws just slightly clear of the baseplate, pivoting at "point B" relative to the plate. 

In the system as Leo designed it is that the plate sits under the screw heads but at a slight angle, and that the whole thing floats and piovts around point B not touching the screwheads or the body at any point.

Angle is exaggerated here for clarity:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c90/stickyfiddle/Trem_zps7152252f.png

I'm kind of sitting on the fence here as personally I'm not a fan of 6 point fixings and actually quite happy with a wilkinson for gentle wobbling or if dive bombs are in order then it has to be a floyd. ( Thats my personal opinion) However if we take Berties picture as a template the problem is that because there is no postive fixing at point B ie no groove for the plate to locate into, then we are relying on spring tension and string tension to keep the trem at point B. If this varies by either an extreme  wiggle or putting your hand on it then there is room and the inevtability of point B moving with a resultant effect on tuning    

northern_guit

Well I certainly have kicked off a debate !! I understand why some say it's a flawed design but my main Strat has a Levinson Blade trem on it, has a roller nut and locking heads. It's designed to sit on the body so when you pull the bar up, the middle bit moves, not the whole lot, however it's not easy to gently rock up and down so I set it up incorrectly in this case just like a regular Strat trem IE a few mill off the body. Here's the thing, it's remarkable, I can go nuts with it and it stays in tune !! I know there'l always be exceptions and if that's the case, this is one of them. Does Jeff Beck do anything special to his trem ?? In my naive little world, I figure, whenever there is friction, there is the potential for problems what ever system you operate.

I've never had to play with tiny tolerances when setting a trem before, they just work. I'm going to put a different bridge on and see what happens, itr may be that the existing bridge is simply buggered !!! I honestly can't see how and a part of me thinks it must be the holes the trem is screwed in to, in other words, depress the bar, they all move left looking down, pull the bar and they all move right. Well it's a theory, if the new bridge does the same, there WILL be a guitar shaped hole in my window !!

I REALLY REALLY appreciate all this wonderful advice guys so thank you and I'm certainly intrigued by the Wudtone system, just could do with it being a tad more price friendly but you get what you pay for I guess !!

impmann

To be fair to Andy, his trem is cheaper than the Callahams I have on my Strats - and it does look nicely made.

BTW - Jeff Beck uses the two-post trem (a la USA Standard), which I truly detest with a passion. But it works for him :-)

andypwudtone

impmann said:

To be fair to Andy, his trem is cheaper than the Callahams I have on my Strats - and it does look nicely made.

BTW - Jeff Beck uses the two-post trem (a la USA Standard), which I truly detest with a passion. But it works for him :-)

Why do you detest the two post trem?