Prog music

mike_l

When does a song become "progressive"?

Is it down to key changes?

Time changes?

Chord sequences?

Scale choices?

A mix of the above?

Dicuss

thisisguitar

Biggus Dicuss?

thisisguitar

Normally a song becomes prog when the lyrics become ponderous bollocks doesn't it?

Seriously though, it's a good question. An unusual time signature normally makes me think prog, especially if there is more than one in a song, but it has to be a combination of factors. Seven days by Sting would appear to fit a lot of prog markers, but I wouldn't call it prog. 

Deijavoo

Has a definite A and B (not the notes) a start and an end. Not a 3 min bash of verse-chorus-verse-chorus. 

Chuffola

Oo ooh I'm a huge Progger!

I love the biggies - Genesis, Floyd, Yes, Tull, ELP - but I have no idea how to define it.

Steven Wilson is Prog. Midlake are Prog. Later Talk Talk - definitely Prog. XTC? Very proggy. Decemberists are definitely bathed in the love of The Prog. Tool - heavy Prog to the max.

Great idea for a thread. Interested to hear some opinions.

viz

Isn't it if it's longer than 10 minutes?

thisisguitar

XTC are a great band!

There must be some type of definition online, but it would spoil the thread to read it. 

I do know that prog can be pop music. I'd consider Mountains by Biffy Clyro to fall into both those categories. 

Maybe 'delivers something unexpected, outside of obvious conventions' could be part of the definition?

EricTheWeary

thisisguitar;94825" said:

Maybe 'delivers something unexpected, outside of obvious conventions' could be part of the definition?

I think this was the original idea but it just grew its own set of conventions quite quickly.

For me rock should be about passion and Prog never is. Very hard to play but dull as ditchwater ( or Dorchester on predictive text!) to listen to is how I'd define it.

octatonic

It is a combination of musical form, orchestration and musical ability of the players, primarily.

octatonic

EricTheWeary said:

thisisguitar;94825" said:

Maybe 'delivers something unexpected, outside of obvious conventions' could be part of the definition?

I think this was the original idea but it just grew its own set of conventions quite quickly.

For me rock should be about passion and Prog never is. Very hard to play but dull as ditchwater ( or Dorchester on predictive text!) to listen to is how I'd define it.

I disagree.

King Crimson's "Red" is incredibly emotive.

thisisguitar

@erictheweary

There's usually and element of virtuosity in there somewhere, but I wouldn't say all prog is hard to play. Most Pink Floyd guitar parts aren't technically that difficult to play (getting the tone maybe is harder!), and I wouldn't say some of their songs are short on passion. Same as I would never listen to Trick Of The Tail by Genesis and consider it dull. Of course, not much is as subjective as music.  

Would we equate passion with emotion btw?

Lol at the Dorchester autocorrect :-)

thisisguitar

Ignore my 'passion with emotion' comment… 

EricTheWeary

octatonic said:

EricTheWeary said:

thisisguitar;94825" said:

Maybe 'delivers something unexpected, outside of obvious conventions' could be part of the definition?

I think this was the original idea but it just grew its own set of conventions quite quickly.

For me rock should be about passion and Prog never is. Very hard to play but dull as ditchwater ( or Dorchester on predictive text!) to listen to is how I'd define it.

I disagree.

King Crimson's "Red" is incredibly emotive.

By and large the classic Prog bands ( Yes, Genesis, ELP that kind of thing) dont do much for me and some of the more recent proggers seem to be retreading a lot of what they did from what I have heard ( thank you Planet Rock). I think originality in rock music is over rated ( and most claims for it over exaggerated)but for something to be 'progressive' it should try a bit harder. But, all IMHO as some of those bands sold records by the bucketload and somebody liked them ( and, clearly, not something I can claim expertise in).

But, for me, rock music should be visceral. It should rock! \m/ That doesnt exclude technical capability or thought ( a great James Brown record could be raw as hell but as clever as fuck) but when it goes only into those realms ( if Pink Floyd records arent about virtuosity they are about applying a thinking process) for me it loses the purpose in being rock (' rock' used in the broadest of senses ).TBH I would apply the same argument to a lot of modern indie music - which has no emphasis on technique but is so self knowing and inhibited and conceptualised it also becomes cold.

What the key elements of classic Prog are I guess include avoiding obvious blues influences ( oddly echoed in post punk), use of different time signatures, multiple sections,etc, but ,perhaps, my thought process here is that Prog is about the concepts and the process first. Not so much ' I just picked up my guitar one day and this is what came out.' 

Anyhoo, off to find Red and then jump around the living room to some Motorhead...

octatonic

If you want one track to listen to from that album then try 'Starless'.

axisus

I'm not in the mood to try and justify prog to anyone right now, but that period after the very early king crimson was awesome - red, starless and bible black, larks tongues in aspic etc.

DulcetJones

Deijavoo said:

Has a definite A and B (not the notes) a start and an end. Not a 3 min bash of verse-chorus-verse-chorus. 

That's pretty much it as far as I'm concerned.  Songs that don't fit the mold.  In my opinion prog has been hi-jacked to a degree by over zealous virtuosos who would prefer to make it more complicated than it needs to be and play way too many solos with way too many notes in them.  My favorite prog is, early Genesis, and a lot of the 70's bands, who did favor some virtuoso playing but not outside of what the song called for in most cases.  The level of musicianship required to play a song like King Crimsons "Epitaph" for example, is not all that high.  Now that you've got me started....., here is a list of some songs by artists that aren't particularly linked to prog but I think are:  "Decades" - Joy Division, "Overture" - The Who(Tommy),  I'll stop there, but the idea is if the song has an unpredictable structure and takes you somewhere when listening to it that other music doesn't, it's probably prog.

johnnyurq

A Soupcon of a lot of the above, but I reckon storytelling and weaving a tale is an important facet. 

Especially with a Fantasy, Literary, or Sci Fi theme.

DulcetJones

As it happens, a friend just posted this on the other FB(FaceBook) a little while ago.  A lot of bands I have never heard of but overall a pretty good run down, although I question Genesis coming in a number 18.

http://www.listchallenges.com/top-100-prog-bands-of-all-time?ref=share

close2u

I think of it as music that has consicously tried to shift away from and avoid any blues / rock 'n' roll reference ... so I, IV, V prgressions are a big no no.

Verse chorus structure is loosened massively so I, vi minor, IV, V progressions are not much in evidence either.

You'll probably have keyboard players with at least three stacked organs / synths / electric pianos etc ... more is better.

Add in a tendency to draw on fairy tale / myth / fable / fantasy adventure concepts in lyrics and sleeve art (although politics - sometimes allegorical - can creep in).

Then plenty of solos.

thumpingrug

EricTheWeary said:

For me rock should be about passion and Prog never is. Very hard to play but dull as ditchwater ( or Dorchester on predictive text!) to listen to is how I'd define it.

Nothing can be as dull as Dorchester.

I think your listening to the wrong Prog if you see it as unemotional.  Steve Hogarth writes intensely passionate lyrics, backed by the rest of Marillion's highly emotive music.   

EricTheWeary

thumpingrug;95172" said:

EricTheWeary said:

For me rock should be about passion and Prog never is. Very hard to play but dull as ditchwater ( or Dorchester on predictive text!) to listen to is how I'd define it.














Nothing can be as dull as Dorchester.

I think your listening to the wrong Prog if you see it as unemotional.  Steve Hogarth writes intensely passionate lyrics, backed by the rest of Marillion's highly emotive music.   

I have listened to a suprising amount of Marillion and seen them live. They even count as one of my obscure claims to fame ( long, boring story). But, they don't do that much for me and I prefer the Fish period if I had to choose TBH.

In the interests of balance I like quite a bit of Rush and have started listening to Magnum again recently. I guess they are both on the periphery of Prog at least.