Klone Army

randomhandclaps

I am thinking of starting a business selling clones of Klon clones.  Which would be the best Klon clone to clone?)

Seriously though, why are some companies, correctly in my opinion, pillarised for ripping off designs like the Timmy, yet the Klon is pilfered wholesale by some and it's considered acceptable?

I am truly interested in what people think.  I know the price of the original puts it out of reach of most etc and I have no issue with someone making up a clone or two and selling it on.  However many makers have made a tidy profit 'mass' producing Klon clones without facing the wrath of internet forums.  Why is this?

ICBM

I don't think you should be doing this for commercial profit.

Building one for yourself is OK, making money from someone else's design without permission is not, and I don't care who else is doing it or whether you think you're just "copying a copy" - if it's a copy of a exact copy of an original it's still just a knock-off of the original, and if it's a copy of a derivative that could possibly be considered slightly original in its own right, then it's still a copy.

That's what I think.

spacecadet

I think a lot of it is because Bill Finnegan is a cantankerous old git that by his own admission, made a living from making someone elses design. Yes he helped but an engineer did the legwork and the clever stuff. Paul C on the other hand is a genuine and honest bloke. Couldn't be nicer to deal with and has always sold his stuff at the right price. Even when Klon were readily available from Bill you would still pay £300 for one.

randomhandclaps

ICBM said:

I don't think you should be doing this for commercial profit.

Building one for yourself is OK, making money from someone else's design without permission is not, and I don't care who else is doing it or whether you think you're just "copying a copy" - if it's a copy of a exact copy of an original it's still just a knock-off of the original, and if it's a copy of a derivative that could possibly be considered slightly original in its own right, then it's still a copy.

That's what I think.

I am not seriously thinking about doing this and agree totally with your point.  It just bemuses me how the Klon has become fair game in the eyes of many.

Dave_Mc

I think you ran into trouble the instant you expected the boutique effects market to have any kind of rational thought in it )

But regarding the original question, I personally don't have a massive problem with clones as long as they're up-front about it- that way people who want to buy the original can still do so, and people who don't want the original can buy the clone (whether that's because they can't afford the original, or want a "better" (more expensive) version, if you ask me, neither group is really in the target market of the original manufacturer).

It's the people claiming to have reinvented the wheel when it's JATS that I don't like.

I have a bunch of cheaper clones and I rationalise it that, for all I use pedals, there's no way I'd have been buying the original at the price they cost. At the price of joyo, mooer etc. it's just a bit of fun for when i feel like mucking about with pedals- when i need srs bzness distortion I have high gain amps for that.

I'm also not gonna tell some 13 year old kid who's saved up his/her pocket money for ages that he/she is awful for buying, say, a bad monkey instead of a tubescreamer.

Grumpyrocker

Seems like a good business to be in. Buy in some Bad Monkeys - put the bits in a metal box with a mythical creature and come up with some amusing Klone-like name. Quids in.

randomhandclaps

 

Grumpyrocker said:

Seems like a good business to be in. Buy in some Bad Monkeys - put the bits in a metal box with a mythical creature and come up with some amusing Klone-like name. Quids in.

Let me know when you have finalised the name and I will take one...maybe two if they are dear enough or limited enough.

 

Grumpyrocker

randomhandclaps said:

 

Grumpyrocker said:

Seems like a good business to be in. Buy in some Bad Monkeys - put the bits in a metal box with a mythical creature and come up with some amusing Klone-like name. Quids in.

Let me know when you have finalised the name and I will take one...maybe two if they are dear enough or limited enough.

 

You'll have to wait in the queue behind the folks at TGP willing to pay $400.

Dave_Mc

)

That would actually be a nice experiment. Put something in a fancy enclosure, claim it's a clone of something sought-after when it's not, and then see if they all notice.

A similar one with a cheapo pedal rehoused in a fancy enclosure but claimed to be some mythical new od would also be a nice experiment. Though I suppose you could claim that experiment happened already with the freekish thing...

juansolo

It's been done to death, but my disclaimer on my site pretty much covers it:

"The pedal market is full of contradiction, hypocrisy, deception and ever so inventive marketing bullshit. Yet within that same market there are some really good guys turning out some great gear. There are also a lot of DIY enthusiasts, and I like to think that we can co-exist. So I really don't want to piss off the enlightened guys who are currently supportive of the DIY scene. The rest...? Well they can just suck my hairy balls."

So for example, I will not make you a clone of anything by Catalinbread, but will happily turn out Klones until the cows come home.

juansolo

As for selling Klones... Hasn't everyone got one by now? I usually have one or two up for sale on ebay at any one time and sell maybe one a month. They're the only thing I make and sell this way. I might make £50 or so on each if I don't count my own labour (which when I had a proper job would have cost a shitload more than that!). It's not exactly sustainable.

I wouldn't mind, I only build them to fund my own pedal building habit. It's pretty dull to make the same thing over and over.

ICBM

Dave_Mc said:

A similar one with a cheapo pedal rehoused in a fancy enclosure but claimed to be some mythical new od would also be a nice experiment. Though I suppose you could claim that experiment happened already with the freekish thing...

It did - and not even rehoused, just repainted. Any fool with the slightest knowledge of pedals should have been able to tell what it was.

juansolo said:

So for example, I will not make you a clone of anything by Catalinbread, but will happily turn out Klones until the cows come home.

Out of interest, why? Just because you like the Catalinbread guy and don't like the Klon guy?

Or because the "true" Klon is no longer in production, and people don't want the one with the stupid text on it?

juansolo

Bill tried to get FSB shut down and branded us terrorists because some guys on FSB de-gooped his pedal and found it not to be the second coming. Catalinbread, Paul C and many others are much more enlightened and actively take part in the DIY community. Essentially if you treat people well you generally get a positive reaction. The DIY guys are interested in how pedals work, most people who make pedals for a living are too. We can co-exist and even learn from each other. Which is cool.

There's an sticky ethics thread over on madbean that's concise and to the point. Or if you go onto DIYStompboxes and register, there's the big catfight thread in the members area that isn't.

The long and short of it is that there are about 3 sides to the ethics debate and no matter which side you are on, you're going to piss someone else off. It's futile, like discussing religion or politics. Life's just too short.

EdGrip

Legally, all of these circuits are fair game. 

Morally, it's up to you, only you, and not some other bloke on a forum preaching to you. You need to make your own mind up. If you decide that one company's pedals are not fair game because you think they are nice people and don't want to, but don't mind copying another, that's an okay decision. 

I find it interesting that Lovepedal are basically copies of other relatively recent boutique designs, and yet everyone seems to bum them. As far as overdrive or distortion circuits go, there's not much new under the sun. Almost EVERYTHING out there is derivative. 

(as such, build a copy of someone else's design but change the value of a cap or a resistor to your tastes, if you like.)

My opinion is that, if you think you can make useful money building distortion pedals - be it a copy of a TubeScreamer, a Klon or something of your own design (which you might well arrive at by copying other circuits and experimenting), then by all means go for it!

 - Ed

EdGrip

...oh, and go and hang out at Freestompboxes.com - they are lovely and extremely helpful folks!

EdGrip

Incidentally, some earlier comments on this thread brought to mind "Pedalgate" - if you're not already familar with it, just Google "Joyo Freekish Blues". The gist is that there was a company called Freekish Blues who were buying £20 Joyo TubeScreamer and OCD clones, gooping the boards and repainting the boxes, and selling them for boutique money to the twats on TGP. Truly LOL-worthy. 

Furthermore, these very same TGP-type buyers will always be adamant that a clone, with exactly the same circuit and components, does not sound as good as the original. This is because Mojo>physics. These are not the people you will be selling to. I would think that you'll largely be selling to enlightened people who are probably capable of building their own pedals but are too lazy, like me.

This is the Light Side of the force - making clones, and selling them as such to like-minded peeps.

The Dark Side is making clones, and selling them as something new in a pretty new box to stupid peeps. 

juansolo

Ooooh Lovepedal... I have no issues with people selling clones of old effects when they say what they are and do it well. When you wrap it up with the sort of tosh that LP do I do tend to take exception. For example:

"The Lovepedal Les Lius features a three way toggle switch that allows you to change tones from 5E3 Woody (Tweed Fender Deluxe), High Power Twin (50′s Fender Twin) and Master Volume Tchula (combination of both the 5E3 Woody and the High Power Twin). The amount of VOLUME is controlled by the first knob. The second knob is a second gain stage which emulates what happens when you crank one of these vintage low wattage amplifiers."

It's a very lightly modded Electra Distortion. The amp models literally, depending on position, add none, one or two more diodes to the already present on board clipping. The second gain stage is complete bollocks considering it only has one transistor! 

Then to buy a random rubber stamp and slap it on the front... That's finishing!?

It's everything I hate about some boutique pedal builders. A pisspotical circuit dressed up in flowery marketing and finished in the same sort of manner a 5 year old might. Slap a huge price on it and the TGP crowd lap it up. I genuinely have no idea why.

randomhandclaps

Although any circuit is fair game, this isn't solely what's happening with Klon clones.  Those who are making and properly marketing Klon clones wholesale are using the name and the attached bullshit to sell theirs.  Basically it's 'The Klon is the Holy Grail, but you don't want to pay holy grail prices do you?'.

I'm don't really buy into the good guy, bad guy angle.  I have never read a bad comment about Paul C, but that doesn't mean his spare time isn't spent drowning baby bunnies.  He may genuinely be a great bloke or he may be very astute at personal marketing.  With Bill trying to shut FSB, although I would have hated to see it, I can understand him being pissed - would you not be?  It's not a cure for cancer that he should be morally obliged to share.  Although it may not have been the holy grail beneath the goop, it obviously impressed and intrigued someone enough to see what was under there.

 

 

 

randomhandclaps

Lovepedal's bollocks is totally propelled be PGS.

juansolo

All of which is entirely valid. Hence why the ethics debate is such a spikey one. There is no right or wrong. It's all how you personally view it. As I say, the only thing you can guarantee is that someone will disagree with you.

randomhandclaps

That's it. As a subject it is as grey as grey can be.