Ruddy 'Modes'!

seany65

I've just got a book called "The Guitar handdbook" by Ralph Denyer from a charity shop. There is quite a lot of info in it and I thought it had answered what for me is the main stumbling block about Modes, ie. what note any particular Mode of a scale starts on. However, on page 111 it starts and ends all of the C major scale modes on C and shows what happens to the other notes. I thought "Yay! A simple explanation that even I could understand!" but on page 110 it shows  the modes of the C major scale starting on different notes and ending on the same different notes.

So I was going to ask:

"Which is correct?"

But in the course of writing this I think I've got a slightly clearer idea of what the book is trying to say on this. Yay!

However, on page 110, it shows all the notes of each C major scale Mode as natural notes, but on page 111 it shows all the modes of the c major scale with various Flat notes and in the case the Lydian mode of the C major scale as having an F#, and says this mode has the same notes as the G major scale.

So now I'm going to ask Which is correct:

'All notes of any Mode of the C major scale are natural', or 'The different Modes of the C major scales have flats or sharps in.'

Any help which is in words of one syllable will be appreciated. Help in words of more than one syllable may not be understood.

viz

Right.

Take C. C major is called C Ionian, and it has C, D, E, F, G, A, B C.

The 2nd mode of Ionian is called Dorian. You can construct a Dorian scale by starting on the 2nd note of the Ionian scale and playing EXACTLY THE SAME NOTES, just with a different starting point. So in the example above, you can see that a Dorian SCALE could be D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D.

That is D Dorian. It's a minor scale, with a raised 6th. D DORIAN IS THE 2ND MODE OF C IONIAN.

You don't have to always have Dorian scale in D. You can also have Dorian scale in any key you like. For example A Dorian would also be A minor with a sharpened 6. It would be A, B, C, D, E, F#, G, A.

You see, Dorian is just an arrangement of intervals as follows: Tone, semitone, Tone, Tone, Tone, semitone, Tone. In the case of D Dorian, that happens to be white notes. But in the case of A Dorian, it has an F#.

A DORIAN IS THE 2ND MODE OF G IONIAN. (therefore G Ionian must also have an F#, and hey presto, it does).

In your example, you talk about Lydian. Lydian is the 4th mode of the Ionian, so it can be constructed by starting on an F and playing only white notes. F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F. In other words, it's tone, tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, semitone. That is a Lydian scale, and it's in F. It's F Lydian. You can see that Lydian is the same as Ionian (the major scale, remember?) except that it has a sharpened 4th. You see? F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F has a sharpened 4th? because you'd normally expect F major to have a B flat. But F Lydian has a B natural.

But you can also play a C Lydian scale. If you were to play a C Lydian scale, it would be C, D, E, F#, G, A, B, C. It's got a sharpened 4th. Lydian ALWAYS has a sharpened 4th. that's just what Lydian is.

You can write a song in Lydian if you like. It's like a song in a major key, but it has a sharp 4th. For example, Flying in a Blue Dream is in C. But it's not in C Ionian, it's in C Lydian. The song has an F# throughout.

Here are the characteristics of each mode, in order:

Ionian: that is a normal major scale. Ionian and major are synonyms.

Dorian. that is like a minor scale, except that it has a sharpened 6th. Songs like What shall we do with a drunken sailor, and Green Sleeves are written in Dorian. listen to them and listen for the sharpened 6th. Doesn't matter what key you play the songs in, they will always be minor with a sharp 6th. if you happen to play them in D, they will have no sharps or flats.

Phrygian :that is like a minor scale, but with a flattened 2nd. Very eastern. It's Semitone, Tone, Tone, Tone, Semitone, TOne, Tone. If you play a scale from E to E on a piano using white notes, you will get Phrygian. But you can also play a Phrygian in A, for example; it will be A, B flat, C, D, E, F, G, A.

Lydian - like a major scale, but with a sharpened 4th.

Mixolyidan - like a major scale, but with a flattened 7th. Lots of rock music is written in Mixolydian. For example Rock and Roll by Led Zep. listen to the first 5 notes of the song.

Aeolian. That's the normal minor. Like in Black Magic Woman.

Locrian: the odd one. it has a diminished 5th. very rare. Prokofiev wrote a beautiful piece in Locrian but otherwise it's hardly ever used as a root chord (though it crops up in jazz a lot).

To answer your question then, all the modes of C Ionian have no sharps or flats.

And all the modes of G Ionian have 1 sharp (the F#).

earwighoney

viz said:

Locrian: the odd one. it has a diminished 5th. very rare. Prokofiev wrote a beautiful piece in Locrian but otherwise it's hardly ever used as a root chord (though it crops up in jazz a lot).

Well said for the entire reply!  Have a wisdom from me. 

The Locrian comes up in a bit of Middle Eastern music as well. 

viz

thanks old bean, and can you post links? I'm very interested in middle eastern music. cheers!

Deijavoo

Some Phrygian for you:

viz

That's Phrygian dominant

Deijavoo

viz said:

That's Phrygian dominant

That's right, been a lot of years since that GT.

seany65

Thanks for the quick reply viz.

I understand that each Scale has 7 Modes starting with the Ionian, which in the case of C major, is C Ionian, etc.

Thanks for clearing up that the other Modes start on different notes of the Ionian Mode (for my own use and with no-one else, I'll call the Ionian Mode the 'Ionian Scale' to remind me that this Mode is the scale from which the other modes are taken).

Wish all Modes of a scale started on the same note as the Ionian Mode, then it'd be so easy to practice and remember. As it is, I'm pretty sure that for at least a while I'll keep getting confused with D Dorian and D scale etc.

 Actually, It'd help me if all C scale Mode names started with C such as C-Dorian, C-Myxolydian, etc. I'd then remember that I was fiddling about with the C major scale.

You have confused me a little when you say:

"...You can construct a Dorian scale by starting on the 2nd note of the Ionian scale and playing EXACTLY THE SAME NOTES, just with a different starting point. So in the example above, you can see that a Dorian SCALE could be D, E, F, G, A, B, C, D."

 but then go on to say

 "That is D Dorian. It's a minor scale, with a raised 6th."

If I'm using the Dorian Mode of the C major scale, and it has exactly the same notes as the C major scale but starting on the D, how can it have a raised 6th?

You've also confused me with your description of the F Lydian Mode of the C major scale

"...starting on F and playiing only the white notes, F,G,A,B,C,D,E,F..."

But you then go on to say

"...except that it has a sharpened 4th..."

How can I play using all white notes if there's an F# involved?

I understand your description of the difference between the F lydian Mode and F major Scale, but I don't understand why F lydian needs an F# because the F major Scale has a Bb.

Anyway, Thanks for the help. I'll stick with it until my brain rebels from all the thinking and makes me watch funny cats on youtube.

earwighoney

viz said:

thanks old bean, and can you post links? I'm very interested in middle eastern music. cheers!

I was trying to find the maqam for the locrian mode, but couldn't find it and now my mind is beginning to doubt itself, but I am fairly sure Omar Khorshid uses locrian modes when he plays as did Sir Richard Bishop in his tribute to him on Freak of Araby. 

Sorry for the vague reply! 

The Phrygian Dominant is one of my favourite scales.  Tricky to improvise in but a huge amount of a fun.  (great with a guitar tuned to Csus2)

seany65

@viz,

Thanks for re-writing your first reply to me making some of my first reply to you seem a bit odd. )

Anyway, first a plea: Please don't use 'scale' and 'mode' as if they're completely interchangeable, F'rinstance you say 'Lydian scale' a couple of times, it'll only serve to confuse me more. ">

I understand that the other Modes have the same notes as the Ionian Mode/Major scale that they are taken from and so different Dorians will have different notes etc.

Hmmm:

"All the Modes of C Ionian have no sharps or flats".

But:

"Lydian ALWAYS has a sharpened 4th. That's just what Lydian is."

Also:

"Dorian is like a minor scale except that it has a sharpened 6th."

But:

"If you happen to play them in D, they will have no sharps or flats."

I'm confused again, it's late and I'm off to watch funny cats.

Thanks again for your help.

viz

Right.

 

From your replies I can see where the trouble lies. So I'm going to explain everything, firstly without any reference to note names, and then only when that's done, starting to bring the actual notes into it. It's going to be a bit theoretical. Try and forget everything you know about actual sounds and keys and things. And I know you know a lot of this stuff but I may as well put it all in one place, maybe it will help others.

 

In western music, there are 12 different notes. To play a chromatic scale, you take any one of them, play all 11 of the remaining notes, in ascending order, and then repeat the first one an octave later, right? If "t" is tone, and "s" is semitone, that would be: ssssssssssss. The word "scale" comes from "scala", meaning ladder. This would be a ladder with 13 evenly-spaced, close-together rungs, 12 identical intervals.

 

For our purposes, the scales we are talking about comprise 7 of these 12 notes. (8 of the 13, if you include the repeated top note). These scales are called heptatonic scales. They are like pentatonic scales, but with 7 instead of 5 notes. (There are also Octatonic scales, as a certain forumite will attest, but let's stick to heptatonic for the time being).

 

There are 462 possible combinations of 7 intervals from a set of 12. So 462 possible heptatonic scales, and that's not even considering actual starting notes - that's just considering abstract intervals alone! There's ttsttts, there's tstttst, there's tstttts, there's tttstst; there are also larger intervals than tones, such as 3 semitones, so you could have scales like tstts3s, st3ss3s. You could even have ssssss5. But so long as there are 7 notes and their total adds up to 12, you have a heptatonic scale. If these were ladders, some of them would have very unevenly spaced rungs.

 

Now, you notice in the examples above, that there are some MODES. "Modes" just means "having the same intervallic cycle, but starting at a different point". It's a bit like "anagram" means "having the same letters but in a different sequence", except for a mode, the sequence is the same, it's the start point that's different. So LIVE is an anagram of VILE, but it's not a mode, because the letters are shuffled. However, LEVI and EVIL are modes of VILE. Let's say VILE is the primary word. Its 2nd mode is ILEV, it's 3rd mode is LEVI, and its 4th mode is EVIL. Actually, there's no reason for VILE to be the primary word, and indeed ILEV, LEVI and EVIL are all words in their own right, as well as being modes of VILE. (ILEV means inherently low emission vehicle ). So Evil is the 4th mode of Vile, but Vile is also the 2nd mode of Evil. They are all words, and they are all modes of each other.

 

Now consider the following "ladder": ttsttts. It's the first one I mentioned above. Apart from itself, which is its 1st mode, it has 6 other modes:

tstttst

stttstt

tttstts

ttsttst

tsttstt

sttsttt.

 

These are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th modes of ttsttts.

However, as well as being modes of each other, they are also scales, or ladders, in their own right. They just happen to be part of a group, because they all share the same cycle of intervals. This is why we say that Lydian is a scale, as well as being one of the 7 diatonic modes. Very important to know that. Here they are:

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/Vizzage/Picture3_zpsauvcnyig.png

 

When I mentioned the 462 possible scales, they are actually 66 groups of 7 scales. The family we are discussing is the DIATONIC family. It has 7 scales in it, which are all modes of each other, called Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian. Convention has us calling Ionian the 1st mode, and we reference the other 6 off it. But we could also call Aelioan the 1st mode if we wished, and then Ionian would be the 3rd mode of Aeolian, right? They are all modes of each other. But they are also scales, or ladders, in their own right. They are related by their intervallic sequence, but they are all totally legitimate scales.

viz

I also mentioned the scales tstttts and tttstst earlier. These are not part of the diatonic family. They are anagrams of ttsttts, but they don't have the same cyclic interval pattern, so they are not modes of any of the diatonic scales. They are part of the MELODIC MINOR family. I have indicated the 1st mode (melodic minor scale itself), and its 4th mode (called the overtone scale). The overtone scale is the 4th mode of the melodic minor scale, but you could also say the melodic minor scale is the 5th mode of the overtone scale.

Have a look at the attached spreadsheet. It shows all the 462 heptatonic ladders, within their 66 groups.

http://www.guitaristtv.com/Downloads/Modes%202014_02_18%20-%20for%20GTV.xlsx

 

 

Now, let’s explore that diatonic family again.

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/Vizzage/Picture3_zpsauvcnyig.png

The red one is the Ionian scale. It is the ONLY scale out of all of the 462 heptatonic scales with a major 2nd, a major 3rd, a perfect 4th, a perfect 5th, a major 6th, and a major 7th. Those notes are related to the root note by their frequencies. The major 2nd is defined as 9/8 of the root's frequency; the major 3rd is 5/4 of the root's frequency; the perfect 4th is 4/3 of the root's frequency; the perfect 5th is 3/2 of the root's frequency, and so on. If you start on frequency 440 hz, the frequencies of an Ionian scale will be 440, 494, 554, 587, 659, 740, 831 and 880. (12-TET people, go away.)

Now if you look carefully, you will notice that the pink Lydian scale is very similar to the red Ionian scale. The only rung that's different is that the 4th one (the 3rd interval) is higher. So the Lydian scale sounds like the Ionian scale, except for the 4th note. The frequencies would be 440, 494, 554, 662 (not 587), 659, 740, 831, 880. We say that the 4th note is "sharpened", in comparison to the Ionian scale, but we should probably say "augmented" or just "raised". Otherwise we could get confused with the word “sharp”, which is a key-specific term.

The brown Mixolydian scale is also similar to the Ionian scale. It just has a lowered, or minor, 7th. We often say “flattened”, but that would be confusing with “flat”, again, a key-specific term.

 

So you have these 7 diatonic scales. They can all be played starting with 440 hz, then just going up the rungs as shown. they all sound different from each other because they have different intervals, and they are all unique scales amongst the 462.

 

Now we start to bring note names into it. Look at a piano:

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/Vizzage/Mobile Uploads/image_zpsg1ohm55q.gif

 

If you play Ionian (ttsttts) starting with frequency 291 (middle C), you would call that "C Ionian", and you could play it using only white notes, because the black notes of the piano are placed exactly to allow those "t" notes to be white, indeed, all the notes to be white. The piano, and in fact the whole system of sharps and flats, is actually designed around C Ionian. If you want to play the Lydian scale, starting on C (which is called C Lydian), that famous “augmented” 4th would lie on a black note, right? It would lie on F#. Of course, if you wanted to play a Lydian scale with just white notes, the only place you could do it would be to start on F. You see therefore how the Lydian SCALE has a "sharpened" or "augmented" 4th, when compared to the Ionian scale, and yet, F Lydian is played with no sharps or flats? And what about if you wanted to play D Lydian? That would have three black notes - F#, G# and C#. Even though only the 4th note is actually "sharpened" or "augmented" when compared to D Ionian (which has F# and C#, but not G#). I really should have said augmented in my earlier post, I can see how it led to confusion.

 

So not only is the Lydian scale related to the Ionian scale in relative intervallic terms regardless of key, but specifically F Lydian is related to C Ionian in absolute note terms too. Here, we start to see modes WITHIN ONE KEY. This is where you often hear people say “C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian”, etc. They are talking about the 7 modes, but no longer in abstract theoretical terms, but within the key of C. Like in the picture below (just look at the top half and ignore the stuff around the ladders):

 

http://i865.photobucket.com/albums/ab217/Vizzage/Music theory/Diatonic_zpsf31b77e3.jpg

You can see the intervals are the same, and now the notes are the same too. Lydian Different intervals from Ionian, but F Lydian has the same actual NOTES as C Ionian.

 

Know what I mean?

viz

So in a ii V I sequence in C, you could play a Dorian scale in D, a Mixolydian scale in G, and an Ionian scale in C, to accompany those chord changes. The ii V I would then be said to be "diatonic". You are playing 3 different scales, but because the scales are starting on the 2nd, the 5th and the root, they are all using the same notes. (That G Mixolydian still has a flattened 7th when compared to the notes in G Ionian though, remember! Just as an FYI!)

On the other had you could play Flying in a Blue Dream in C - not in C Ionian, but in C Lydian, with F# throughout. It would be totally irrelevant that C Lydian happens to be a mode of G Ionian - yes, that would be true, but not relevant to the piece. The piece is "in C", and every 4th is augmented, so it uses F# instead of F, so it's written "in C Lydian".

kin

Wow, that's fantastic @viz, thanks very much for sharing.

Modulus_Amps

I have never fussed about modes very much, I could never understand their importance when you know the major scale that they relate to, which was much easier to remember and covers 90% of rock music. so I always focused on learning the major scales but......

one of the best lessons I have gone through on the modes is this, Play or loop yourself playing a C5 chord and then try and improvise over it in different C modes i.e. C Ionion, C Dorian, C Prygian etc the main point of doing this is by playing the mode against the root note, that is when you hear the difference between the modes

GuyBoden

@viz Well done good stuff.

Too much emphasis by western music on Ionian (major) scale/harmony has been detrimental to other scales. Thankfully, contemporary music theory has been addressing these issues.

Dominic

Excellent analogies in the description of modal understanding

Being a Londoner I often explain it to people as being like the circle line -just getting on at different stations

viz

Ta chaps and yes Guy I agree with you; although I've of course nowhere near exhasuted western music, Russian and middle eastern / eastern music is pretty exciting.

GuyBoden

Dominic said:

Excellent analogies in the description of modal understanding

Being a Londoner I often explain it to people as being like the circle line -just getting on at different stations

Sadly, many musicians only understand scales purely in their relationship to the Major scale....

Don't confuse Modes with Modal, it's very different, each scale has it's own musical universe in modern Modal theory.

viz

Re modes vs modal, please could you elaborate, Mr Boden?

viz

earwighoney said:

viz said:

thanks old bean, and can you post links? I'm very interested in middle eastern music. cheers!

I was trying to find the maqam for the locrian mode, but couldn't find it and now my mind is beginning to doubt itself, but I am fairly sure Omar Khorshid uses locrian modes when he plays as did Sir Richard Bishop in his tribute to him on Freak of Araby. 

Sorry for the vague reply! 

The Phrygian Dominant is one of my favourite scales.  Tricky to improvise in but a huge amount of a fun.  (great with a guitar tuned to Csus2)

Thanks - just spent a pleasant hour listening to Khorshid, really nice. Yes he uses Locrian as a dominant to the phrygian, which in turn is a dominant to the Aeolian. So basically as the ii in a ii-v-i, all chords minor. Very nice. Thank you!