Something I've realised about playing fast

bingefeller

Over the past 2 months I've been working on my picking a lot and have finally managed to get up to playing 130bpm at 16th notes without much bother.  I can go a bit faster, but it's a strain, so I'm saying 130bpm at 16th is my limit of playing fast and clean at the moment.

I rarely use strict alternate picking at this speed in my own playing.  I don't play my own stuff, just playing along with albums, but when I'm trying to play something like a fast Zakk run, like some of his licks in Miracle Man, where he is supposedly using all picking, I combine picking and legato.  

Just wondering if anyone else here practices their picking and then doesn't really use it as a practical application?

John_P

I'm working in my right hand technique at the moment.  But I know that live I'll use a mix of picking and legato - it's just how I play and I'm ok with that. 

bingefeller

John_P said:

I'm working in my right hand technique at the moment.  But I know that live I'll use a mix of picking and legato - it's just how I play and I'm ok with that. 

Interesting thing is that Paul Gilbert uses a lot of legato in his playing.  Sure he is very fast picker, but he throws in tons of legato too. 

I also saw a recent video of Bruice Bouillet and he seemed to have been playing with  more legato now than he did in the 80s. 

Danny1969

I like fast picking on single notes, like the very end phrase of the Beat It solo but generally, like you even though I practice picking a lot I tend to legato a lot when I'm actually playing, it's just easier and smoother sounding 

digitalscream

I've never been able to sustain any kind of picking practice - certainly not to the extent that I'll ever know my maximum BPM for 16th notes. In fact, the same goes for all my practice, really.

I learn enough to play the licks I have in my head slightly faster than I need (to account for excitable drummers) and that's basically it.

I'm constantly impressed by people who can do it. I just don't have the time or the energy to get there. Probably accounts for why my playing's so sloppy, I guess

Catthan

I used to do this and I got very good at picking the exercises but not much better at my own playing. I am not sure this is the most efficient method anymore so lately I've been practicing fast lines the way I'd play them in context. These lines are either transcribed ones or my own. The trick imho is to get ears working-hearing fast; I find that if I can't hear it, I can't play it. Then I take it slow and adjust the picking (or lack of) based on target speed, position and what will likely follow the fast line. Imho the ears must give the direction, i.e. be able to hear the whole fast line in my head in detail. When/ if I get that, adjusting picking style is the easy bit. I think this has helped me more. I also spend more time adding to my bag of tricks than doing 1234 on every string or 3nps scales.

DLM

bingefeller said:
I also saw a recent video of Bruice Bouillet and he seemed to have been playing with  more legato now than he did in the 80s. 

That's because his hands are buggered up. At one time, he could only play with one finger, so he tuned to an open chord and got on with it. Listen to his Double Stop interview for the full skinny.

bingefeller

DLM said:

bingefeller said:
I also saw a recent video of Bruice Bouillet and he seemed to have been playing with  more legato now than he did in the 80s. 

That's because his hands are buggered up. At one time, he could only play with one finger, so he tuned to an open chord and got on with it. Listen to his Double Stop interview for the full skinny.

Thanks for the tip, listening to it now and it's very interesting listening.  


http://thedoublestop.com/ep-32-bruce-bouillet-racer-x-the-scream-solo/

koneguitarist

Sorry, what is legato? I struggle to play fast, even before Arthritus, so doing something else could help me. 

bingefeller

koneguitarist said:

Sorry, what is legato? I struggle to play fast, even before Arthritus, so doing something else could help me. 

Hammer ons and pull offs.

Barney

Iv been working on alternate quite a bit lately but when i play i use a mixture of hybrid and alternate i use aternate until i want to move to the next string then use my finger...once im on that string  its back to alternate until i move to the next ....i just find when going to the next string its easier to use my finger ...also its easier to skip strings as well

bingefeller

Barney said:

Iv been working on alternate quite a bit lately but when i play i use a mixture of hybrid and alternate i use aternate until i want to move to the next string then use my finger...once im on that string  its back to alternate until i move to the next ....i just find when going to the next string its easier to use my finger ...also its easier to skip strings as well

Experiment with starting a phrase with an upstroke instead of a down and this might make your string changes easier.  What you're explaining sounds like a pick slanting issue. 

Do you find it more difficult to change strings after an upstroke or after a downstroke?  

Barney

bingefeller said:

Barney said:

Iv been working on alternate quite a bit lately but when i play i use a mixture of hybrid and alternate i use aternate until i want to move to the next string then use my finger...once im on that string  its back to alternate until i move to the next ....i just find when going to the next string its easier to use my finger ...also its easier to skip strings as well

Experiment with starting a phrase with an upstroke instead of a down and this might make your string changes easier.  What you're explaining sounds like a pick slanting issue. 

Do you find it more difficult to change strings after an upstroke or after a downstroke?  

Yeah iv been doing that quite a bit especially with economy picking ..my picking isnt really bad i can get 240 bpm alternate easy enough on 16ths but just find it much easier with hybrid ..especially with gain on ...i just find it smoother ..when using clean sounds though its mainly alternate 

John_P

16th notes at 240bpm suggests you don't need to work on alternate picking - that's pretty speedy! 

Barney

John_P said:

16th notes at 240bpm suggests you don't need to work on alternate picking - that's pretty speedy! 

Iv been doing it on the backings on ireal player
Thats the way iv been measuring improvement but the hybrid seems a lot smoother and less effort to me ...im just not keen on the jumps to the next string so thats when i use my finger...all the rest is alternate... i use legato a bit as well though which is smoother than both to me

carlos

bingefeller said:

koneguitarist said:

Sorry, what is legato? I struggle to play fast, even before Arthritus, so doing something else could help me. 

Hammer ons and pull offs.

As understood by the guitar playing community it's hammer-ons and pull-offs. Originally it means linking notes seamlessly between each other, so the least attack as possible on new notes. With a plucked string instrument like ours it's always tricky to smooth out the attack and link the notes. Hammer-ons and pull-offs with the right technique played with compression and some OD is the closest we can get to bowed string legato. The opposite is staccato which guitars do by default without us even trying.

baddog01

Have you guys checked this guy out. 
He has a bunch of videos out there.

baddog01

Evo

There's been a lot mentioned about practicing and improving picking but nothing really said for the guys that said they practiced but never really used it, so I thought I'd weigh in on that front. 

Generally, if I'm going for speed then a combination of picking and legato yields the best results. The thing that makes me go for picked licks is definitely more of a tonal decision. It wasn't until I really slowed down my picking that I realised how much of my alternate picking actually ended up containing legato blips here and there. Once I cleaned those up, I noticed a dramatic change in the tone of those licks and phrases. Strict alternate picking delivered much more aggression and dynamics to my playing whereas the combination licks made my playing sound smoother and more even. Therein lies the reason I started using those alternate picked lines in my live work, for the extra aggression and tonal variation it brings when compared to legato or picking/legato. So just bear that in mind next time you're coming towards the end of one of your solos and you want it to build up to a big finish. Rather than a speedy legato flurry, try a strict alternate picked run or pentatonic lick and I guarantee you'll hear a completely different angle on your playing