Good live solo tone?

Jimbro66

That intrepid pair Dan and Mick of That Pedal Show defined a good solo tone as 'one that can be heard'. That sums it up pretty well IMO, perhaps with the word 'clearly' added. But having seen five semi-pro bands at indoor and outdoor gigs over the past week it's obvious that not all guitarists grasp that concept or know how to achieve it. In each of those bands the 'lead' guitarists' solos just weren't heard at all clearly, which is a shame as they were all decent players. So why?

In each case the sound engineers did a pretty good job so not them to blame. All five bands had rhythm guitarists who used distortion pedals, some with added modulation effects and/or delay, so that created a pretty relentless and fairly prominent wash of sound with little dynamics. Solos just weren't cutting through that wash because the lead tones were too scooped and with too much gain and in a some cases overlayed with effects. As a result solos that should have soared above the backing were instead just lost in a wall of mush.

I'll bet those solo tones sounded great at home, and in a three-piece band they might have been just what was needed to fill out the sound, but against the wall of sound created by the rest of these band members, particularly the rhythm guitarists, they were not a good choice. I think a lot of the experienced members here would have seen straight away that changing the rhythm sound to crunch rather than distortion, mostly ditching their effects, would have given the solos more of a chance. Then a less scooped solo tone with more mids and perhaps easing off the effects would have helped the solos sit clearly on top of the mix.

It just seems a real shame to me when a guitarist has clearly put in the graft but ultimately, and not due to lack of volume, can't be heard clearly.

Jalapeno

spot on !

Let's not also forget rythmn guitarists belting out full barre chords with distortion to clog up the mid range nicely ....

Danny1969

One of the reasons I like EMG pickups is because they tend to cut through the densest live mix's. There's been times I've fancied a change and used another guitar only for the our normal  soundman to complain "it didn't cut through like your normal guitar"

Generally in a more semi pro \ pro environment the guy mixing will make room for the solo by dipping other instruments ... you never fight volume with more volume, it helps if the band are aware of what needs to be presented forward and adjust themselves accordingly as well but in some styles of music that's not really possible 

Cirrus

Quite often I've seen two guitar bands where the "lead" player obviously spent a lot of money on a fancy amp and wanted to use it, and the rhythm player was just a hack who had a cheap amp and a couple of distortion pedals.

Which means the lead player had a dynamic, full lead tone, and the rhythm player had a compressed, midrangey saturated rhythm tone.

All else being equal, it should be the other way round.

Note that there's nothing wrong with having a cheap amp and pedals, if that's your bag. 

slacker

I either use a two channel overdrive/boost or control volumes with the pickup selector. I'll drop my rhythm level to just under the other guy and then boost the lead. I'll try not to stomp all over the other guy.

Then there's the guitarist who just stomps over your sound. In my experience having a Klon eq overdrive is good for the win.

hotpickups

This is why I much prefer to have only one guitarist in my band i.e. me

EricTheWeary

People not knowing how to play behind a solo and feeling the need to fill in the gaps does my head in. 
Very probably I cut through the mix best when I used a compressor. I just don't like using them.  The OP referenced That Pedal Show and they describe compressors something like the overdrives of clean. Somewhere in my gut I know I ought to use a compressor but they are amongst the least sexy pedals ever so my cycle of not being heard continues... 

Maynehead

My solution is simple but effective. EQ in the loop with a mid hump which serves two purposes 1. reshapes my crunchy rhythm tone into a smooth round lead tone, 2. increases the overall volume of the amp by boosting the signal going into the power section.

I also like to have a delay after the EQ which really fills out the single note leads.

I leave both of those pedals on all the time, and use the FX on/off footswitch as a rhythm/solo mode switch.

digitalscream

Every time this problem's shown itself at gigs I've been to, the issue is not one of an individual making a mistake with their tone - it's all of the individuals making mistakes with their tone. The whole sound of the band needs to change at solo time, IMO - the rhythm guitar needs to give way a bit (usually in the mids and the highs), and for that to remain clear the bass needs to give a little in the low-mids.

It doesn't take much, but so few bands actually spend time examining their sound these days that it's just become expected that you're not going to be able to hear everything properly.

ICBM

"Being heard" is not a good criterion to judge a tone on, by itself. Unfortunately a bad solo tone can also be one that "can be heard" - even "clearly" - because it's far too loud and harsh or trebly. I would say that's the thing that's easily most often wrong with electric guitar sounds, rather than being too scooped. Putting the amp where you can't hear it properly is often responsible for that.

Ask any punter what they thought of the electric guitar sounds when they've seen a band and you're far more likely to hear "too loud" or "too shrill" than the other way round.

I completely agree with digitalscream that a big part of the problem is the rest of the band not using dynamics and frequency separation properly, which leads exactly to guitarists thinking they need to "cut through".

TheBigDipper

I don't find it a problem to discuss dynamics, complementary tone, note choice and ensemble playing with people who are classically-trained. Unfortunately, they aren't the people I end up in bands with! Both @ICBM and @digitalscream are bang on the money for me. Many bands (and their members) clearly don't understand the importance of spending time discussing and resolving issues regarding the overall band sound and note choice. Oh well...

guitarfishbay

ICBM said:

I completely agree with digitalscream that a big part of the problem is the rest of the band not using dynamics and frequency separation properly, which leads exactly to guitarists thinking they need to "cut through".

It isn't just frequency separation though in terms of EQ - it is musical arrangements.  Maybe not an issue if you stick to how some classic songs are arranged, but if you're changing arrangements or writing your own music it can get overlooked.

The simplest thing you can do is have the solo in a different register to the other instruments.  If you've got your sounds 'right' then that will make a solo stand apart well enough.  The more complex thing is thinking about musical space...  When you play chords that takes up musical space, bigger chords take up more space, leaving less space for a solo.

In my honest opinion, in a band with vocals, the rhythm guitarist shouldn't be trying to 'cut through' the way I imagine people think of it (the classic 'turn up the mids' guitarist)... they should be trying to fit in above the bass and behind the singer.  If the singer doesn't have their own space then a solo won't either.

ICBM

guitarfishbay said:

It isn't just frequency separation though in terms of EQ - it is musical arrangements.

Exactly, that's what I meant as well.

guitarfishbay said:

In my honest opinion, in a band with vocals, the rhythm guitarist shouldn't be trying to 'cut through' the way I imagine people think of it (the classic 'turn up the mids' guitarist)... they should be trying to fit in above the bass and behind the singer.  If the singer doesn't have their own space then a solo won't either.

A long long time ago, it was described to me by a very good sound engineer that a good mix is a bit like a trifle in a bowl…

If you look at the EQ of the instruments graphically as the various layers in it, they all fit together so the top is more or less flat, and there's some meringue in the middle on top, with some chunks of fruit scattered throughout it.

So the bass should be deep down at the bottom, probably slightly scooped and actually with a bit more top-end than you might expect (which is why some bass players use tweeters, which is counterintuitive to a lot of people). The rhythm instruments should also be scooped, but sit on top of and just within the scoop of the bass. The lead instruments should fit within that again, so they're mostly midrange. The vocals are the meringue on top, and the drums are the scattered bits of fruit .

It's more logical than it sounds at first, although it may be easier to visualise after you've drunk all the sherry…

Cirrus

See, I think of a mix more like a terrible jumble of rusty scrap iron, and maybe there was something beautiful under it all. But it's been destroyed.

midlifecrisis

hotpickups said:

This is why I much prefer to have only one guitarist in my band i.e. me

taken me the last four years to come to this conclusion too, just left my band of four yrs, fed up competing to be heard over hamfisted rhythm player and enjoying being only guitarist complementing bass and vocals, breath of fresh air

stratman3142

I've played in big (10 piece) bands as the only guitar player and in smaller bands as the only guitarist with a keyboard player plus a funk rhythm guitarist with a clean sound. In those situations I've not had a problem cutting through on solos. Problems have occurred in a dual guitar bands sharing rhythm and lead duties where both guitars are using a crunchy sound on certain songs and in those situations it's sometimes necessary to kick in more than I would ideally like to for solos.

In a live band situation, solo sounds with more mid (i.e. not scooped) work for me, which is why I didn't get on with my Fulltone OCD for that purpose, even though it sounds good in isolation.

When I'm playing rhythm or someone else is soloing I'd rather err on the side of being too quite. I'll often turn down if I feel the vocals aren't cutting through or when someone else is soloing, even if it means I can hardly hear myself. But when it's my turn to solo I'd rather err on the side of being slightly too loud.

It's useful if I have musician mates in the audience because then they can give me signals, plus I look for signals from the sound man if we have one. This is where it's good to work with sound men that you know and trust.

koneguitarist

Good tone, is simply one you like. No other crteria needed. 
A good mix has nothing to do with quality of tone, sometimes quite the opposite. 

ICBM

koneguitarist said:

Good tone, is simply one you like. No other crteria needed.

Disagree. I've heard far too many guitarists with tones *they* like but which are like an icepick in the ear of anyone unfortunate enough to be standing in front of their amp - some of them famous. I'm sure most other people who've ever been to a rock gig have too.

Good tone is one the *listener* likes. No other criteria needed .

koneguitarist said:

A good mix has nothing to do with quality of tone, sometimes quite the opposite. 

But agree there.

Kebabkid

@ICBM said a bad or not desirable-to-the-player-tone can be the best in the context of a band or guitarist being heard. I get that. I once played in a West Coast band (Steely Dan, Eagles, Doobies etc) and we had 3 guitarists. The amount of mid I had to use really annoyed me as in isolation, the sound was far from inspiring but it worked a treat with the other two guys.

The live guitarist sounds I like have more of a scooped sound but the secret to them cutting though seems to be a Wet/Dry set up e.g. Lukather

mike_l

##from playing at jam nights##
When playing behind a solo/lead part I much prefer to split down to either diads (usually root + 3rd), straight power chords or single note riffs. This lets the lead guitarist (or on occasions saxophonist or keyboardist) much more room to play. 
When playing leads a simple Boss SD-1 with everything set around 2 o'clock into a slightly scooped amp works really well (for me).
I do tend to turn the amp slightly down from anyone who's played ahead of me, mostly because I like high output pickups which are fractionally (but noticably) louder than other guitars.

The worst tone I've heard was a Squire Telecaster which was screeching and squealing and had no low end and little mids. I do suspect the pickup was borked.

koneguitarist

ICBM said:

koneguitarist said:

Good tone, is simply one you like. No other crteria needed.

Disagree. I've heard far too many guitarists with tones *they* like but which are like an icepick in the ear of anyone unfortunate enough to be standing in front of their amp - some of them famous. I'm sure most other people who've ever been to a rock gig have too.

Good tone is one the *listener* likes. No other criteria needed .

koneguitarist said:

A good mix has nothing to do with quality of tone, sometimes quite the opposite. 

But agree there.

I meant as the listener not the player, as that was from the OP's point of view.