Your Monster Cable is nonsense.

EdGrip

http://consumerist.com/2008/02/08/monster-cables-monster-ripoff-80-markups/

EdGrip

(Admittedly this refers to a digital environment, where the off-the-scale bullshit factor is likely obvious to we techies. But it's just nice to see Monster getting a kick in the cock.)

jpfamps

This is rant about retailers actually making a profit be selling something rather than a debate about the (dubious) merits of monster cable, and might well apply to any product.

Andyjr1515

Way of the world, to be honest.  Over the years, I've dealt with manufacturers, distributors, wholesalers and retailers.  The standard starting retailer price is 2x the wholesale price.  The manufacturer usually gets 10% or less of the retail price. 

'twas ever thus

stickyfiddle

Obviously a $200 HDMI cable is a ripoff, but the retailer margin here is normal, and totally fair- making money is why shops exist. 

Not that Monster stuff isn't pile of overblown rubbish based on marketing bullshit.

Adam_MD

The reason electrical stores stay in business is the margin they make from cables, batteries, printer cartridges etc. the margin on tvs, pcs and washing machines is so low they'd never make any money. It's only gotten worse now because of the Internet.

p90fool

Those of us with the technical knowledge to make an informed decision will always find a better deal than the average consumer, but that doesn't mean that everyone else is getting ripped off.

I bet all of us pay full price in other retail environments which don't interest us as much. I have no doubt that I've been "overcharged" for curtains or car tyres in my time, but I just don't have the time to do that much homework.

I work on a simple formula based around what I could be earning if I wasted half a day researching every little purchase in my life.

ICBM

stickyfiddle said:

Obviously a $200 HDMI cable is a ripoff, but the retailer margin here is normal, and totally fair- making money is why shops exist. 

Not that Monster stuff isn't pile of overblown rubbish based on marketing bullshit.

Exactly. It's not the retailer margin that's the problem here. If you've ever bought a set of strings or a pick in a music shop you've paid a far higher mark-up usually. It's how shops stay in business - they don't actually make that much on the relatively rare sales of guitars and amps, and they very often have to price-match those to the point they're barely making a profit anyway.

But Monster will always be special to me… as the brand which opened my eyes as a teenager that not all massively-hyped, expensive accessories are even as good as cheaper stuff, let alone better.

Skipped

I am always interested in thoughts about cables.
That is probably because a guitar tech rolled his eyes at me a few months ago after carefully examining the Stagg cable that I use with my vintage Gibson guitars and my "boutique" Tweed amp. I am still "not sure".

And yet with Hifi - I could hear it without difficulty. Especially the change from bell wire to budget half decent cable. The second change to good speaker cable was more subtle but still there. I still get people asking why there are 2 lengths of garden hose in my lounge.

ICBM

Skipped said:

And yet with Hifi - I could hear it without difficulty. Especially the change from bell wire to budget half decent cable. The second change to good speaker cable was more subtle but still there.

You would need to blind-test that to convince me.

These tests have been done and there is absolutely no difference once you get above 'adequate' - ie big enough gauge to not introduce any significant resistance… that's the only thing that matters. The bell wire would have been just too thin.

Signal interconnects do make a real difference for exactly the same reason that guitar cables do - significant capacitance in the range that has an effect on the circuit characteristics.

That's all. There is no magic, no nonsense about metal purity, grain structure, directionality, skin effect or all the other buzz words you'll hear 'audiophiles' use… just simple physics, and there are only three parameters involved: resistance, capacitance and inductance. For any cable at the voltages and currents used for either audio signal or domestic speaker levels, only resistance and capacitance matter, the inductance is too small.

If you still think otherwise I could show you how to set up some proper blind or direct-switching tests which would prove it.

The whole world of "high-end" hi-fi and guitar cables is built on ignoring the laws of physics. That doesn't mean that all cables are exactly the same, but any differences between them must be explainable by real mechanisms and not just claims that if you swap something you think you can hear a difference.

ChrisMusic

Andyjr1515 said: Way of the world, to be honest.  Over the years, I've dealt with manufacturers, distributors, wholesalers and retailers.  The standard starting retailer price is 2x the wholesale price.  The manufacturer usually gets 10% or less of the retail price.       'twas ever thus

Very true.

Lots of Asian import stuff gets sold with at 10x margin and even more.

And as for the obscene markups with Harrods concessions, well the ladies do like the street cred of the green bag I suppose.

But conversely, there is VAT and the other taxes on business to take into account, and if we want our shops and retailers to stay in business, you know the nice ones with time to talk and a knowledge of what they sell, then the exorbitant overheads of trading in the UK have to be met somehow.

ThePrettyDamned

Pete Cornish cables.

There, I said it.  

EdGrip

ICBM said:The whole world of "high-end" hi-fi and guitar cables is built on ignoring the laws of physics.
More specifically, it's a world of people saying (essentially) yes, well, the "laws of physics" are all well and good but there are more things in Heaven and Earth, audio-n00b, than exist in your philosophy - namely, mysterious stuff. Mysterious stuff that makes expensive cables sound audibly better. Of course, you have to have very discerning ears to hear it - we wouldn't expect you to understand. Look, here is a picture of an oscilloscope.

ICBM

EdGrip said:

ICBM said:

The whole world of "high-end" hi-fi and guitar cables is built on ignoring the laws of physics.

More specifically, it's a world of people saying (essentially) yes, well, the "laws of physics" are all well and good but there are more things in Heaven and Earth, audio-n00b, than exist in your philosophy - namely, mysterious stuff. Mysterious stuff that makes expensive cables sound audibly better. Of course, you have to have very discerning ears to hear it - we wouldn't expect you to understand. Look, here is a picture of an oscilloscope.

I'd be happy to believe it could make a difference if it could be proved in a blind test, whether or not you can see it on a scope. An oscilloscope is just a useful diagnostic tool, not what matters when you're listening to music. I actually do suspect there may be things you can hear which might not be easy or perhaps even possible to see on a scope… maybe not even on a spectrum analyser.

If you can't see the difference on a measuring instrument, and there is no physical reason why there should be such a difference, *and* you can't tell the difference in a blind test, then there is no difference… period. But if you can tell the difference in a properly-conducted blind test, then there is one and it's up to the engineers to work out what the reason could be.

The problem is that the 'audiophiles' won't accept blind testing either. I have a good idea why.

p90fool

I've done a bit of "prototyping" in the audiophile industry and it's a real eye-opener. The trick to selling cables for £2000 and up is to have some kind of Box of Nonsense somewhere along its length, containing something which adds to the "musicality" of the cable.

It honestly doesn't matter what it is, but one thing they ALL contain is RS Stock No. 199-1418

Danny1969

p90fool said:

I've done a bit of "prototyping" in the audiophile industry and it's a real eye-opener. The trick to selling cables for £2000 and up is to have some kind of Box of Nonsense somewhere along its length, containing something which adds to the "musicality" of the cable.

It honestly doesn't matter what it is, but one thing they ALL contain is RS Stock No. 199-1418

I used to use that to stop people ripping off my pre amp circuits, the pre amp went in a potting box and that shit got poured in on top to leave a black box with a  wires attatched

On a side note a crap guitar cable with a high stray capacitance makes a good EQ tool for recording some guitars. 

Clingy

Just because you (or I) cannot hear the difference does not mean that others cannot. Much the same as people scoff at me for buyng a good amplifier or guitar, "they all sound the same to me" they will say.  It follows with many things, like fine wine or food.  Just because I cannot tell the difference between a £15/£20 bottle of wine and a £50 bottle doesn't not mean there is no difference or that someone else cannot tell the difference.  I know I can tell the difference between a £5 bottle and a £15 bottle.  Like several of you, the move from cheap speaker cables and interconnects to good budget ones seemed to me to be worthwhile, above that it became less clear TO ME.  But like so many of these things, Guitars included, you have to pay progressively more for smaller increases in quality.  Buy a guitar for £200 and you can get a much better one fro £500.  To get a similar jump from teh £500 you need to spend £2000.  The same applies to sports kit, cars, cameras, Hi-Fi, yada yada.

EdGrip

The law of diminishing returns isn't what's mentioned here - it's the phenomenon of selling/buying unproven benefits for lots of money. As ICBM says, if blind testing shows that no-one can tell which is which with greater accuracy than chance, there is no difference. 

I have no idea what tests have been done - for all I know good blind tests have been done that show the hose-pipe cables etc. are effective. 

ICBM

Clingy said:

Just because you (or I) cannot hear the difference does not mean that others cannot. Much the same as people scoff at me for buyng a good amplifier or guitar, "they all sound the same to me" they will say.  It follows with many things, like fine wine or food.  Just because I cannot tell the difference between a £15/£20 bottle of wine and a £50 bottle doesn't not mean there is no difference or that someone else cannot tell the difference.  I know I can tell the difference between a £5 bottle and a £15 bottle.  Like several of you, the move from cheap speaker cables and interconnects to good budget ones seemed to me to be worthwhile, above that it became less clear TO ME.  But like so many of these things, Guitars included, you have to pay progressively more for smaller increases in quality.  Buy a guitar for £200 and you can get a much better one fro £500.  To get a similar jump from teh £500 you need to spend £2000.  The same applies to sports kit, cars, cameras, Hi-Fi, yada yada.

The point is that *if the people who claim to be able to hear these differences* would accept trying it in a blind test, and they can prove they can hear the difference, then it's real. If they can't, then it isn't. But they won't do the testing - they just insist that they can tell and hence anyone who says they can't is wrong.

Would you? It's not actually difficult. To make it really conclusive it needs to be 'double blind', which is a bit more complicated to arrange, but a well-conducted single-blind test carried out by honest people who are trying to find the truth is as good really. All you need is a blindfold and a helper who can swap cables without giving away which they've chosen. Repeat the test a few times and if you can identify which cables are being used, then you'll know you're right.

p90fool

Clingy said:

Just because you (or I) cannot hear the difference does not mean that others cannot.

There is sometimes an element of truth to this, but the OP's reference was about cables which transmit noughts and ones. Basically they either do or they don't, there's no quality difference if they work properly.

Also, I've had to sign (and stick to) Non Disclosure Agreements when working for  "Hi-Fi" companies where the product is nothing but a fantastically expensive, deliberate, cynical rip-off. No "I can hear the difference, if you can't it's because you're not as finely-attuned as me", I'm talking about a completely empty box. Not diminishing returns so much as no returns whatsoever.

I've seen many times how effective the placebo effect can be, but charging £21,700 for two speaker leads (in one company's case) is a bit steep when that's all it is.

ThePrettyDamned

p90fool said:

Clingy said:

Just because you (or I) cannot hear the difference does not mean that others cannot.

There is sometimes an element of truth to this, but the OP's reference was about cables which transmit noughts and ones. Basically they either do or they don't, there's no quality difference if they work properly.

Also, I've had to sign (and stick to) Non Disclosure Agreements when working for  "Hi-Fi" companies where the product is nothing but a fantastically expensive, deliberate, cynical rip-off. No "I can hear the difference, if you can't it's because you're not as finely-attuned as me", I'm talking about a completely empty box. Not diminishing returns so much as no returns whatsoever.

I've seen many times how effective the placebo effect can be, but charging £21,700 for two speaker leads (in one company's case) is a bit steep when that's all it is.

Holy cow!

Power supplies made me laugh, too.  As I understand it, a reliable power supply is good, but beyond that...

You can pay thousands of pounds for one, if you're so inclined, because it is supposed to sound better.  Which is important, because music recorded for the radio must be heard at audiophile quality ¬_¬