Reading standard notation

bingefeller

When you guys are reading standard notation for something that's not in the key of C, how do you approach this?  Do you memorise what notes the sharps and flats are on or do you learn it in the key of C and then transpose?

m_c

I've always memorised the sharps/flats

octatonic

Never learn it in C and transpose.
The process is to first learn the cycle of 5ths.
Then you learn how to read in certain keys going around the circle of 5ths in either direction.
That was you are only changing one note at once (other than accidentals).

It takes work but it isn't especially difficult- although once you get into 4 or 5 sharps/flats it can start getting a bit hairy to sight read.

Roland

The sharps and flats at the start of the stave tell you which key it's in, and knowing the key makes it easier to remember sharps/flats on the fly.

octatonic said:

 once you get into 4 or 5 sharps/flats it can start getting a bit hairy to sight read.

I sometimes wonder whether composers avoid these keys because of this

fretmeister

Learn the key signatures.

1 sharp = G major
2 sharps = D major

etc etc.

I never learn anything in the wrong key and then transpose - that seems like playing by fretboard pattern rather than playing the notes.

The secret to learning to read is simple. Lost of small duration practice is far better than long sessions far apart.

5 minutes per day will get you much further than several hours on the weekend in a single session.

octatonic

Roland said:

The sharps and flats at the start of the stave tell you which key it's in, and knowing the key makes it easier to remember sharps/flats on the fly.

octatonic said:

 once you get into 4 or 5 sharps/flats it can start getting a bit hairy to sight read.

I sometimes wonder whether composers avoid these keys because of this

Yes, I should have stated that when I see a piece in a particular key, let's say Eb, then I am thinking only about 3 flats.
There is a place on the guitar where that is good to read, and I only move out of position when I have to.

fretmeister

Roland said:

The sharps and flats at the start of the stave tell you which key it's in, and knowing the key makes it easier to remember sharps/flats on the fly.

octatonic said:

 once you get into 4 or 5 sharps/flats it can start getting a bit hairy to sight read.

I sometimes wonder whether composers avoid these keys because of this

I doubt it.

Just because the standard instruments don;t have a "difficult" key signature doesn't mean the rest of the band comprising of transposing instruments has an easy ride.

I'm doing a lot of Stevie Wonder at the moment - I'm going to guess he wrote the tunes to make it easy for the horn section because for the rest of us there are tons of sharps and flats!

bingefeller

octatonic said:

Never learn it in C and transpose.
The process is to first learn the cycle of 5ths.
Then you learn how to read in certain keys going around the circle of 5ths in either direction.
That was you are only changing one note at once (other than accidentals).

It takes work but it isn't especially difficult- although once you get into 4 or 5 sharps/flats it can start getting a bit hairy to sight read.

I know the cycle of 5ths but not sure what you mean in this comment.  

Do you mean learn a tune in the key it's written then play it in the circle of 5ths?  

paul_c2

bingefeller said:

When you guys are reading standard notation for something that's not in the key of C, how do you approach this?  Do you memorise what notes the sharps and flats are on or do you learn it in the key of C and then transpose?

The key signature will show you the sharps or flats if you really want to closely look at it, but you don't need to because they always come in the same order:

7 flats: Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb, Fb
6 flats: Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb
5 flats: Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb
4 flats: Bb, Eb, Ab, Db
3 flats: Bb, Eb, Ab
2 flats: Bb, Eb
1 flat: Bb
none: none
1 sharp: F#
2 sharps: F#, C#
3 sharps: F#, C#, G#
4 sharps: F#, C#, G#, D#
5 sharps: F#, C#, G#, D#, A#
6 sharps: F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#
7 sharps: F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E#, B#

Notice there are patterns in there, the most obvious/useful being that the flats and sharps come and go in the order of the "circle of fifths". The circle of fifths comes up again and again in music theory and practical aspects, so its well worth learning.

So, just look at the number of sharps and flats and you'll be automatically know (if you've learnt the above) which ones they are.

Of course, the key signature usually defines the key of a piece but you'd need other cues to know if its major or minor - or possibly something else a bit unusual.

paul_c2

Roland said:

The sharps and flats at the start of the stave tell you which key it's in, and knowing the key makes it easier to remember sharps/flats on the fly.

octatonic said:

 once you get into 4 or 5 sharps/flats it can start getting a bit hairy to sight read.

I sometimes wonder whether composers avoid these keys because of this

Some composers, or probably more accurately arrangers, will choose a nice key or transpose a piece to minimise the number of sharps/flats, not simply to make it easier to read, but to make it sound nicer/more natural/more melodic on certain instruments. For example, in an brass band, most pieces will be in Bb, Eb or Ab to mainly put it into the "sweet" spot of brass instruments. Brass can cope quite well with odd keys, woodwind instruments tend to fare worse - their "C"* is almost always the easiest key to play in, and the more sharps/flats, the more use is needed of the extra levers and rods etc on the mechanisms which allows them to play all the notes - which also makes things harder to play. *Most woodwind instruments are transposing.

But of course, there's plenty of composers/arrangers who don't - and certain instruments will end up with awkward-to-play pieces. And they'll expect them to be played just as nicely as if it were in their ideal key.

octatonic

bingefeller said:

octatonic said:

Never learn it in C and transpose.
The process is to first learn the cycle of 5ths.
Then you learn how to read in certain keys going around the circle of 5ths in either direction.
That was you are only changing one note at once (other than accidentals).

It takes work but it isn't especially difficult- although once you get into 4 or 5 sharps/flats it can start getting a bit hairy to sight read.

I know the cycle of 5ths but not sure what you mean in this comment.  

Do you mean learn a tune in the key it's written then play it in the circle of 5ths?  

Nope- I described the process of learning to read.
So start in C, then find a song in G and a song in F (one sharp, one flat).
Then find a song in D and a song in Bb (two sharps, two flats).
And so on.

If you go straight in trying to read in F# or B then you'll probably crash and burn.

This isn't the only way to do it- but it is how music students learn how to do it a music school and it is how I learned.

octatonic

fretmeister said:

Roland said:

The sharps and flats at the start of the stave tell you which key it's in, and knowing the key makes it easier to remember sharps/flats on the fly.

octatonic said:

 once you get into 4 or 5 sharps/flats it can start getting a bit hairy to sight read.

I sometimes wonder whether composers avoid these keys because of this

I doubt it.

Just because the standard instruments don;t have a "difficult" key signature doesn't mean the rest of the band comprising of transposing instruments has an easy ride.

I'm doing a lot of Stevie Wonder at the moment - I'm going to guess he wrote the tunes to make it easy for the horn section because for the rest of us there are tons of sharps and flats!

I've never known a composer to avoid a particular key because it would be hard for the instrumentalists.
They usually put the music first.

That said, jazz is often in flat keys to accommodate transposing brass/woodwind.
But there is also the assumption that they can play out of position too.

I've had some real asshats write tunes in C# and Cb, just to be difficult.

bingefeller

octatonic said:

bingefeller said:

octatonic said:

Never learn it in C and transpose.
The process is to first learn the cycle of 5ths.
Then you learn how to read in certain keys going around the circle of 5ths in either direction.
That was you are only changing one note at once (other than accidentals).

It takes work but it isn't especially difficult- although once you get into 4 or 5 sharps/flats it can start getting a bit hairy to sight read.

I know the cycle of 5ths but not sure what you mean in this comment.  

Do you mean learn a tune in the key it's written then play it in the circle of 5ths?  

Nope- I described the process of learning to read.
So start in C, then find a song in G and a song in F (one sharp, one flat.
Then find a song in D and a song in Bb (two sharps, two flats).
And so on.

If you go straight in trying to read in F# or B then you'll probably crash and burn.

This isn't the only way to do it- but it is how music students learn how to do it a music school and it is how I learned.

Right I see!  Thanks.

paul_c2

octatonic said:

I've had some real asshats write tunes in C# and Cb, just to be difficult.

The one that gets me is (the major key of) F#/Gb, because there's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, its impossible to avoid Cb or E#, which to me appear (excuse the pun) unnatural. Arragements I've come across tend to stick to Db or B ie the enharmonic equivalent of C# or Cb but with 5 flats or sharps, to make things a bit easier to comprehend.

@bingefeller Its worth (IMHO) familiarising yourself with a piano keyboard and its notes, since it visually illustrates which notes are natural and which are sharp/flat very well.

bingefeller

paul_c2 said:

octatonic said:

I've had some real asshats write tunes in C# and Cb, just to be difficult.

The one that gets me is (the major key of) F#/Gb, because there's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, its impossible to avoid Cb or E#, which to me appear (excuse the pun) unnatural. Arragements I've come across tend to stick to Db or B ie the enharmonic equivalent of C# or Cb but with 5 flats or sharps, to make things a bit easier to comprehend.

@bingefeller Its worth (IMHO) familiarising yourself with a piano keyboard and its notes, since it visually illustrates which notes are natural and which are sharp/flat very well.

Cheers Paul.

I take notions every now and again to work on my sight reading.  I know the notes, but am slow at working out the best fingerings on guitar and even slower if it's not in the key of C.  

paul_c2

I think its just a case of trying it, BUT making sure there's a gradual progression from easy (ie key of C, no accidentals) to more advanced stuff. If you jump in with 4-5 sharps (or flats), accidentals all over the place, weird time signatures, 3 octave range and semiquavers etc its going to much harder.

Here's a useful website: https://www.sightreadingfactory.com/app

Its free but only gives about 20 or so tests - they're computer generated so don't expect them to be particularly musical either. It will let you set the key signatures to try and other aspects to make it easy/hard.

bingefeller

paul_c2 said:

I think its just a case of trying it, BUT making sure there's a gradual progression from easy (ie key of C, no accidentals) to more advanced stuff. If you jump in with 4-5 sharps (or flats), accidentals all over the place, weird time signatures, 3 octave range and semiquavers etc its going to much harder.

Here's a useful website: https://www.sightreadingfactory.com/app

Its free but only gives about 20 or so tests - they're computer generated so don't expect them to be particularly musical either. It will let you set the key signatures to try and other aspects to make it easy/hard.

Quite a lot of jazz transcriptions are all written in C and have the sharps and flats in there to help you, bar by bar.  

It's when I want to learn something and the transcription is in standard notation and I look at it and it's so offputting, you know?  

octatonic

bingefeller said:

paul_c2 said:

I think its just a case of trying it, BUT making sure there's a gradual progression from easy (ie key of C, no accidentals) to more advanced stuff. If you jump in with 4-5 sharps (or flats), accidentals all over the place, weird time signatures, 3 octave range and semiquavers etc its going to much harder.

Here's a useful website: https://www.sightreadingfactory.com/app

Its free but only gives about 20 or so tests - they're computer generated so don't expect them to be particularly musical either. It will let you set the key signatures to try and other aspects to make it easy/hard.

Quite a lot of jazz transcriptions are all written in C and have the sharps and flats in there to help you, bar by bar.  

It's when I want to learn something and the transcription is in standard notation and I look at it and it's so offputting, you know?  

That might help in the short term but it definitely doesn't in the long term.
It is much more efficient to have it in the right key signature- it makes the score a lot cleaner to read, you just stick in position on the fretboard and play in that key.
This might be hard to understand if you've never done it, but trust me on this.

bingefeller

octatonic said:

bingefeller said:

paul_c2 said:

I think its just a case of trying it, BUT making sure there's a gradual progression from easy (ie key of C, no accidentals) to more advanced stuff. If you jump in with 4-5 sharps (or flats), accidentals all over the place, weird time signatures, 3 octave range and semiquavers etc its going to much harder.

Here's a useful website: https://www.sightreadingfactory.com/app

Its free but only gives about 20 or so tests - they're computer generated so don't expect them to be particularly musical either. It will let you set the key signatures to try and other aspects to make it easy/hard.

Quite a lot of jazz transcriptions are all written in C and have the sharps and flats in there to help you, bar by bar.  

It's when I want to learn something and the transcription is in standard notation and I look at it and it's so offputting, you know?  

That might help in the short term but it definitely doesn't in the long term.
It is much more efficient to have it in the right key signature- it makes the score a lot cleaner to read, you just stick in position on the fretboard and play in that key.
This might be hard to understand if you've never done it, but trust me on this.

I know bro.  

I really want to play some of this - http://www.poparad.com/pdf/missjonesrogers.pdf

Tab is so handy because you can just look at it and you're playing it instantly.  

All Bs are flat :-(  

octatonic

bingefeller said:

I know bro.  

I really want to play some of this - http://www.poparad.com/pdf/missjonesrogers.pdf

Tab is so handy because you can just look at it and you're playing it instantly.  

All Bs are flat :-(  

Yes, so that is in the key of F major.
I read that mostly at the 5th fret- so A Phrygian fingering.

bingefeller

Will you make it into tabs for me Jim?