Scales, arpeggios, positions etc

paul_c2

What order did you learn scales (including pentatonic ones) in? What order did you learn different positions of that scale in, or not? And what did you learn after the first (, second, third) etc scale?

.........And.......do you actually use them (all)?

octatonic

Ultimately it doesn't matter which order you learn them in if you take a long range view of how to transform your playing.

I'd suggest you learn them in this order.

Pentatonics- major and minor, in 5 positions, in at least 5 keys (C, G, D, F, Bb first)
Major scale- in CAGED and 3 note per string patters, in at least 5 keys.
Major scale modes, in CAGED and 3 note per string patters, in at least 5 keys.
Melodic minor, in CAGED and 3 note per string patters, in at least 5 keys- especially the super locrian mode of this and its use over the V chord.
Harmonic Minor, in CAGED and 3 note per string patters, in at least 5 keys.

Once you get that far you will be pretty capable and will probably have diverted off to investigate things that you find interesting- I got stuck in diminished scale and super locrian stuff for a bit.

At the same time you should be looking at arpeggios.
I can always tell a player who got stuck in scale playing and neglected arpeggios.
Scale playing is kinda like regurgitating the dictionary at someone- yeah all those 15 letter words are mightily impressive when delivered at speed but is it a cohesive sentence?
Usually not.
Argeggios (and more specifically the outlining of chord progressions in playing) give you contextual vocabulary rather than just loads of impressive finger wiggling.

Do I use them all?
Yes but some more than others- it depends on the material.
Over rock type stuff it is more major scale and dorian, mixolydian, pentatonics.
Over blues it is major/minor pentatonics, mixolydian, superlocrian, melodic minor
Over metal type stuff it is often 3 note per string major scale modes, harmonic minor and modes, pentatonics.
Over jazz stuff it is everything.

paul_c2

Great, thanks. Its pretty much as I'd expected from my own research. I am gradually following this and picking up tips along the way: www.justinguitar.com/en/AR-101-WhyAndHowUseArpeggios.php in addition to actual lessons. I obviously embrace the fact that its easy/possible as a technical exercise to sit down and learn a ton of stuff, but if it doesn't have a real world use then its superflous/waste of effort/confusing/unnecessary/indirectly useful/for interest only. Hence, why I was keen on hearing people's views on when they actually put their theory into practice.

Also looking at "classical" stuff alongside, I know when I was a kid they had major, harmonic minor and melodic minor scales. Somewhere in the intervening 30 years or so, they've recognised the validity of the natural minor scale; and the wholetone scale has made an appearance too (or maybe I never noticed it previously). (And of course, chromatic ones too).

Roland

paul_c2 said:

.........And.......do you actually use them (all)?

The only keys I haven't used are C# and G# major, and that's because I've never encountered a song written in them, or had to transpose a song into either of them.

paul_c2

Roland said:

paul_c2 said:

.........And.......do you actually use them (all)?

The only keys I haven't used are C# and G# major, and that's because I've never encountered a song written in them, or had to transpose a song into either of them.

I'm not too worried about different keys, on the guitar. I do remember, a long while ago, having the occasional issue with the key of a piece, during playing bass. It would typically range from 1 or 2 flats, (Fmaj/Bb maj) to 6 flats (Gb maj or Eb min) because these tend to make it easier for Bb and Eb transposing instruments. Often I'd scan a piece and find its lowest note is Eb, which is a pain on a 4 string!! And the usual hand position for Bb put you into using frets 6-8 or so on the low E string, which on my bass, sounded a bit stuffy so I was always going up and down the neck. I've not found a corresponding stuffiness on the guitar, though, so there's no really "bad" keys.

Its an interesting angle though - "are there good and bad keys for the guitar?" - I've found that once you get over the hassle of reading and remembering multiple flats/sharps the physical constraint the instrument itself imposes on the key, is negligible on the guitar (and only a minor issue on the bass - no doubt a 5 string bass (I've not played one) will get round it to a certain extent). I know from experience that some instruments are a complete pain in the arse in certain keys, though.

PS played plenty of stuff in Db major or Ab major, I think I had some in Ab minor (7 flats) a few times.

Rocker

@Octatonic, you wrote a detailed reply to this question. I have very little idea what you are saying and even less of an idea of how to go about learning some of it. Or even where to look. Simply put, I don't know what it is that I don't know. Please suggest a book to get me started. Thanks.

octatonic

Rocker said:

@Octatonic, you wrote a detailed reply to this question. I have very little idea what you are saying and even less of an idea of how to go about learning some of it. Or even where to look. Simply put, I don't know what it is that I don't know. Please suggest a book to get me started. Thanks.

The best way to learn this stuff is to be drip-fed in a weekly lesson type situation.
I'm not really the best guy to ask for beginning music theory books because I learned most of it at school and I don't teach from a book either.

If you can't or won't do that then pretty much any beginners music book should be ok.
"Basic Music Theory: How to Read, Write, and Understand Written Music" is supposed to be good but it is pitched at a very basic level.
The problem is I don't know if this is where you are at with it and what book I should suggest.

'Music Theory of Dummies' is pretty good too.

paul_c2

Rocker said:

@Octatonic, you wrote a detailed reply to this question. I have very little idea what you are saying and even less of an idea of how to go about learning some of it. Or even where to look. Simply put, I don't know what it is that I don't know. Please suggest a book to get me started. Thanks.

When I started I didn't know about CAGED but have learned/applied it. I took lessons though, and the teacher has a large amount of prepared material with a bunch of stuff on. But, there's plenty of online resources around, of varying quality. One I've understood and stuck with for a little while, because its explained in a logical way, is:

http://www.justinguitar.com/en/SC-000-Scales.php

I've linked to the "Scales" lessons but you'll see on the left of the screen, links to all the stuff he's done. Its a good starting point. Also its a good tip he offerss - don't just learn scales for the sake of it, learn them in order to use them. Don't learn too many too quickly, etc.

stratman3142

I suppose I learned things in the order I needed the information. I think I probably learned the major scale then the basic major and minor pentatonic scales because those fitted the solos I was copying at first. I also learned the 5 shapes to cover the whole guitar neck.

At the time I didn't know they where called pentatonic scales and it was much later that I realised the CAGED system could be used as names for the 5 shapes I'd already worked out.

Then I started to fill in extra notes in the pentatonic scales to create the modes of the major scales. After that, I worked out how to modify the modes of the major scale to create other scales. For example, I view a harmonic minor scale as an Aeolian mode with a major 7th and a melodic minor scale as a Dorian mode with a major 7th.

It was ear driven in that I heard sounds I wanted to create, then worked out what groups of notes (i.e. scales) made that kind of sound. 

I try to keep things as simple as possible and know what it's going to sound like if I deviate from, or add to, the basic pentatonic CAGED shapes which form the framework for my thinking. Also, I'm generally aware of the arpeggios of the chords as I play through a sequence, so I can bend the scales to fit the chords.

Although I often employ three notes per string, I've never learned three notes per string scales because I just see them as notes selected from adjacent CAGED shapes. Having said that I'll sometimes get lost, throw my fingers at the neck and wing it by ear to resolve things, which can give interesting results.

However, my playing is rooted in blues and rock, with a few jazzy notes. I'm out of my depth with full on bebop style jazz because my ear isn't connected with that and, although I appreciate it, it's not what I want to play. So there's a whole load of stuff I'm aware of but choose not to spend time on.

Blueingreen

Octatonic's post is an excellent, concise summary of this stuff but I think if I'd read it when I was starting out I might have felt pretty intimidated. 

I started off with minor pentatonic, as so many of us do, and as a self-taught guy I didn't show any real interest in theory for the first 2-3 years at least.  I didn't think of it as minor at that point, just the pentatonic scale.

The next step was realising that sometimes guys used a pentatonic scale that wasn't the one I expected, but was 3 semitones lower.  I think Honky Tonk Women was the first song I really noticed that on. So on G major Keef or Mick would be using  what I thought of as E pentatonic, and that gave a sound that was less bluesy, more country.  I also realised you had to phrase things differently to make it sound good, like resolving to the G a lot more. I also realised that in some contexts in G one of the two pentatonics worked better, while in others you could use them interchangeably for different sounds. It was only much later I found out that the E pentotonic was also called the G major pentatonic.

Next step I got kind obsessed with Santana and I realised he was adding a couple of notes to the pentatonic scale.  If you had a song in A minor (pentatonic ACDEG) he'd add a D; and in some contexts he'd add an F, in others an F sharp.  I sort of noticed that the F was added when the IV chord was minor, F sharp when it as major or dominant, but I wasn't really thinking about these as different scales, or theoretically in relation to the chords, I just thought you took your basic pentatonic and you added two notes, one a tone above the root, and your ear would tell whether to add what I later found out to be the minor or major 6th of the root.

I also realised that the fretboard pattern formed by adding the F and the pattern added by adding the F sharp were actually the same, they just started at different points of the fretboard.  So you didn't need to learn two patterns, just one, and start it on different points of the neck.

What I'd discovered, although I didn't know this at the time, was two of the modes of the major scale.  And once I learned these patterns I realised there were a lot of places in music - including most rock music - where the pattern could be made to fit.  Of course many people regard this pattern as 7 different scales, but I never really have - I think of it as one pattern, and rely on your ear to make it work in context, rather than consciously thinking "this is Aeolian" or "this is Dorian" or "this is Myxolydian".

Of course there was music where this didn't work.  I realised if I stuck on a Frank Sinatra album and tried to busk along with my pattern I was completely lost.  At some point I realised if I was going to progress to playing more complex music I'd need to study theory properly and get blues scales, melodic minor, harmonic minor and symmetrical scales under my fingers.

But it's amazing how much ground you can cover with a tiny amount of theory: pentatonic, pentatonic 3 frets down, and pentatonic with the two added notes gave me all I needed to know to solo on most rock/pop.

stratman3142

@Blueingreen That's remarkably close to how I developed my knowledge of scales, except for some reason I latched on to the major pentatonic first and think of the minor pentatonic as being created by the same shape but three frets (or semitones) up.

octatonic

Fair point Blueingreen.
Yes, just learning what I've written could take 20 years.
It will at least take 2, I reckon

sweepy

I'd advise looking at 4 note per string scale layout as well, I found it very helpful in unlocking the fretboard and not getting stuck in little "boxes" I also found that I learnt more about the theory and layout of the fretboard with just a pencil and a blank fretboard diagram, it really helped me to visualise some of the concepts before even picking a guitar up

paul_c2

Sanity check (arpeggios)

1. I know major scales - in all 5 positions. But for now, let's stick with the basic position, which one might refer to as the "E" shape position; others might know it as the 2nd position; or the 1st pattern (there is no strong convention on its naming). Here's a picture, for clarity:





2. If I play notes 1 (ie above, the red blob on the low E string, NOT the note before), 3, 5 and 7 in a major scale, I've just played the arpeggio for the major 7th chord (R, M3, P5, M7)
3. If I play notes 4, 6, 8 (ie 1 an octave up) and 10 (ie 3 an octave up) I've also just played the major 7th arpeggio, albeit in a different way.
4. If I play the notes 5, 7, 9 (ie 2 an octave up) and 11 (ie 4 an octave up) I've just played the dominant 7th arpeggio (R, M3, P5, m7)
5. If I play notes 2, 4, 6, 8 (ie 1 an octave up) I've just played the arpeggio for the minor 7th chord (R, m3, P5, m7)
6. Similarly for notes 3, 5, 7, 9 and 6, 8, 10, 12 of the scale - minor 7th arpeggio
7. If I play notes 7, 9, 11, 13 I've just played the half-diminished 7th arpeggion (R, m3, d5, m7)

viz

Nice. 

paul_c2

viz said:

paul_c2 said:

Sanity check (arpeggios)

1. I know major scales - in all 5 positions. But for now, let's stick with the basic position, which one might refer to as the "E" shape position; others might know it as the 2nd position; or the 1st pattern (there is no strong convention on its naming). Here's a picture, for clarity:





2. If I play notes 1 (ie above, the red blob on the low E string, NOT the note before), 3, 5 and 7 in a major scale, I've just played the arpeggio for the major 7th chord (R, M3, P5, M7)
3. If I play notes 4, 6, 8 (ie 1 an octave up) and 10 (ie 3 an octave up) I've just played the arpeggio for the dominant 7th chord (R, M3, P5, m7)
4. Similarly, if I play the notes 5, 7, 9 (ie 2 an octave up) and 11 (ie 4 an octave up) I've also just played the dominant 7th arpeggio, albeit in a different position
5. If I play notes 2, 4, 6, 8 (ie 1 an octave up) I've just played the arpeggio for the minor 7th chord (R, m3, P5, m7)
6. Similarly for notes 3, 5, 7, 9 and 6, 8, 10, 12 of the scale - minor 7th arpeggio
7. If I play notes 7, 9, 11, 13 I've just played the half-diminished 7th arpeggion (R, m3, d5, m7)

Just check point 3 there old bean. 

Yep I wrote the post out from my head, and quickly realised when I picked the guitar up! I've now corrected my original post for this one.

TheBlueWolf

Justin has tons of great resources that will help you out.

I learnt the minor pentatonics first then discovered that the major ones used the same shapes; you just move the shape down 3 frets. I learnt the major and relative minor scales after that. As I use the CAGED system knowing the pentatonics meant I had a great idea of how the relevant major/minor scales related to them.

I've yet to delve more into scales as most of the time I play bluesy, classic rock.

paul_c2

TheBlueWolf said:

Justin has tons of great resources that will help you out.

I learnt the minor pentatonics first then discovered that the major ones used the same shapes; you just move the shape down 3 frets. I learnt the major and relative minor scales after that. As I use the CAGED system knowing the pentatonics meant I had a great idea of how the relevant major/minor scales related to them.

I've yet to delve more into scales as most of the time I play bluesy, classic rock.

Yes......the scales and pentatonics are easily relatable. BUT the arpeggios are only vaguely related to the underlying scale/arpeggio, in his diagrams and positions - there's a lot of times where the note is played on a different string etc. Whether this is for a reason, such as its easier to move around a few frets doing arpeggios, or its useful to reach those extra notes at the top/bottom, I don't know - I'd have thought it more logical, and easier to learn, just by staying in the position.

TheBlueWolf

I just went and looked. Check out this link http://www.justinguitar.com/en/AR-002-Minor7arp.php

Using position 1 ( E shape ) as an example it's a couple of notes short of both the related pentatonic/minor scale. 

You're right, position shifts exist, it's sometimes easier than a huge stretch but it drifts out of position which can be confusing.

@Paul_c2 if you show me an example of what you meant I might be able to help

nickp

I'm lazy and haven't read all the other posts.  What I failed to do and am now amending is tying the chord to the scale.  So if you are playing say G pentatonic minor - always start and end on the root in each position and play the CAGED chord that fits that scale shape before and after doing the scale.  And maybe play the chord and then play around moving from chord to some scale "fills" and back to the chord so you can see the scale shapes around the chord. I think this is really really really important rather than just ripping through 5 shapes of the minor pentatonic without knowing the chord that underpins each position

paul_c2

TheBlueWolf said:

I just went and looked. Check out this link http://www.justinguitar.com/en/AR-002-Minor7arp.php

Using position 1 ( E shape ) as an example it's a couple of notes short of both the related pentatonic/minor scale. 

You're right, position shifts exist, it's sometimes easier than a huge stretch but it drifts out of position which can be confusing.

@Paul_c2 if you show me an example of what you meant I might be able to help

Basically you've said what I noticed too - that the arpeggios don't use/follow the underlying positions.