Playing keys in a band

thecolourbox

If I were to consider getting my skills in order to try and get into a band playing keyboards, what kind of things should I be learning it brushing up on?

I know that sounds like a bizarre question, but it is sort of on a similar basis to how playing guitar in a band you need to brush up on certain techniques and play different things to if you are just noodling about at home.

I've previously done grade 8 classical and have also played in various solo jazz scenarios, also done a fair bit of accompanying so I've got the basic skills, but they never seem to be all that necessary in a band compared to day having a good ear for simplicity and knowing when to start or stop.

What current examples might there also be of keys players in bands?

I enjoy the Doors and can already play a fair number of theirs, but keyboard playing in bands is different now to that kind of thing (I think).

I do have a Microkorg synth but I'm not very up on synthesis, my fear is that this is what is going to be suggested!

Bands I enjoy that include keys are:
The Doors
Stevie Wonder
The Dead Weather
I always like the simplicity of Lennon's piano playing
Jamie Cullum but I don't particularly want to play in a jazz band as such

Cheers guys, any suggestions, thoughts or tips are very welcome

goldtop

Won't it depend on how wide a ground you have to cover in the band? For example, I regularly see a guy using the Hammondish/pianoish/etc tones from a 88-key but lightweight Casio. Sounds fine, but he's mainly doing Van Morrison, blues, old pop, etc.

But then I see guys who do modern covers, where there's a lot of detail to work out to make it as compelling as the original production. Like this guy on the Kronos.

thecolourbox

goldtop said:

Won't it depend on how wide a ground you have to cover in the band? For example, I regularly see a guy using the Hammondish/pianoish/etc tones from a 88-key but lightweight Casio. Sounds fine, but he's mainly doing Van Morrison, blues, old pop, etc.

But then I see guys who do modern covers, where there's a lot of detail to work out to make it as compelling as the original production. Like this guy on the Kronos.

That's very true, as I'm definitely not thinking of the kind of thing in the video, probably more like your old mate with his Casio but trying to find a style or whatever that sounds cool to play but is also not mind numbingly dull to play, so was hoping there might be examples of this kind of thing where it didn't just resort to piano plonking like Coldplay or Muse, but also isn't as cheesy as the funk kind of stuff (sorry I find funk to be so cringey)

EricTheWeary

FWIW:

A surprisingly common thing with keyboardists is playing the 'home' version when playing in a band rather than something closer to the record and it always sounds a bit rubbish, clashing with the bassist,etc. 

IMHO your also better off ( assuming roughly some kind of covers band)sorting basic sounds ( piano, Hammond, electric piano) rather than trying to use loads of ( cheesey)sounds unless you have amazing gear. I'd say much the same to guitarists.

Our keyboard player complains about having to do too much simple stuff in our band ( ska and reggae). True to some extent although people like Jerry Dammers in The Specials played outside the genre clichés. When I used to listen to a lot of rock ( what has become classic rock) my favourite keyboardist was Colin Towns with Gillan, again someone who played outside the clichés ( he went on to become a successful film composer).

Whenever I look at places like joinmyband or Facebook ( west midlands bands and musicians group) keyboard players seem to be the thing they most struggle to find so the world's yer oyster. The biggest problem for you will be putting up with guitarists who know no theory...

And for anyone trying to be in a band don't be the band arsehole, BVs are an advantage, try to be clear about expectations at the start and you're auditioning them as well as them auditioning you.

  

thecolourbox

Yeah that is the concern a little bit is that it could potentially be quite boring playing stuff you could effectively play with one finger, but to play interesting stuff is going to be too much going on. Definitely not going to be one for cheesy pad sounds or strings, or brass or any of that crap, very much hoping to cover stuff with organs and e-pianos with maybe the occasional guitorgan type stuff like in the Dead Weather (see Treat me like your Mother for an example)

Are there any examples of good keys players that don't look like total dweebs and sound decent that I should check out folks?

octatonic

It kinda hinges on how many people are in the band and how difficult the material is.
Have a look at this (just because it is awesome).



They have a couple of keys players here, as well as Stevie.
And a full brass section, BV's, drums, percussion, guitar etc.
It would be pretty easy to hide in a band like that (not that anyone is).
If you are going to be the sole keyboardist playing this sort of music then you'd need to be on it.

If you are playing Dandy Warhols one fingered bass lines then you don't have to be as skilful.

Danny1969

I have keys players in 3 of the bands I play in and I play roughly 50% of keys in another band. The parts you play depend entirely on what music your covering. Something like "It must be love" or "walking in Memphis" will have very recognizable keyboard parts. Something like Uptown Funk would involve aping the horns mostly with one hand and a synth pad with the other. 

Most workstations now allow audio recording and you can record samples of vocals, guitar chords, or kinds of stuff to trigger during a song rather than playing a specific keys part. A good keys player is often cheating great backing vocals 

It's not a showmans instrument, well not unless your Liberace or something, the best keys playing in most songs goes unnoticed but it gives the rest of the band so much space, a wonderful thing to have in a band and an area where most bands are weak in pub \ club level

horse

I play keys, mainly because I find it easier to find bands needing keys rather than guitar. When playing hammond I tend to play right hand only and ride the volume control a lot with my left hand (proper players would use volume pedal). I try to mix things up from playing more / less, louder/ quieter, single note lines vs 2  or 3 note chords, different inversions of chords etc, counterpoint melodies...

For piano I play 2 handed, but 'less' left hand than I would if playing solo. Try to keep out of the bass freq territory, work with the lead guitarist to try and avoid us both playing too much too often...

thecolourbox

Yeah I think what I'm struggling with is piano only as a rhythm instrument, I've listened to quite a few different examples today after this was suggested to me but to be honest I don't find any of it would be worth the effort it would require to be in a band - but I shall have a few more listens (and watching what people are doing on YouTube is possibly more use) to stuff and see.

Whilst I did say I like Stevie Wonder it's more the playing technique he has rather than his music as such, I've no wish to play that kind of music though!

horse

Not saying I'm doing it 'right' or anything, but here's a couple of examples of how I approach organ vs piano myself:

thecolourbox

Thanks for that, sounds good. I don't think I could reliably do that though as I think I'd struggle with the subtlety side of things, I think I'm too used to piano as a solo instrument to be able to do that very well.

Sadly mostly seems to be mono single note synth lines on the more modern things I've heard with keys, which wouldn't be all that fun

TheBigDipper

Wis for @horse and @EricTheWeary ;

@thecolourbox It sounds like you want to be in a band because you like being in a band. Nothing wrong with that, obviously. Now I'm not a keyboard player at all, but looking at my mates who are and the way they fit into their bands, I'd say they are mainly supportive of the music rather than dominating it. Lots of "pad" sounds in the background, with large amounts of single note melodies pretending to be a cello or a flute. The overall band sound is led by vocals or guitar. As musicians, they stay out of the bass players way and play a lot of triads with the right hand. 

The problem I foresee is that bands playing music led by interesting-to-play keyboard parts already have keyboards (if you see what I mean...). The band leader IS the keyboards player and there won't be a vacancy for you. 

Start your own, perhaps?

horse

thecolourbox said:

Thanks for that, sounds good. I don't think I could reliably do that though as I think I'd struggle with the subtlety side of things, I think I'm too used to piano as a solo instrument to be able to do that very well.

Sadly mostly seems to be mono single note synth lines on the more modern things I've heard with keys, which wouldn't be all that fun

For what I do, I think the challenge is similar to when you have 2 lead guitarists - if you both just do what you want / what you would do if the other wasn't there, then it will never sound as good as it could. But it requires give and take - I don't tend to be inclined to play less unless everyone else is willing to do similar

guitarfishbay

Have you considered you could market yourself as a keys & rhythm guitar player rather than just one or the other?

That way you could potentially get in to an otherwise 1 guitar band who might need 2 guitars on some songs but keys and a guitar on others.  It can work quite well and allow the band to cover a lot more ground stylistically.

Winny_Pooh

Listen to the keys, or better watch a live performance of Little Dragon. The two guys split bass and melody parts and they are simple but essential. 

It all radically depends on what type of bank you play in.

If its more guitary then check out Wolf Parade, great blend of synth and guitar stuff.

Sassafras

Best of both worlds:

thecolourbox

Thanks all for all the tips and advice, keep it coming

@horse you are right re the give and take bit, that would take some getting used to! That's probably I've never really been in a band much as I like it my own way too much do have to stick to solo!

@thebigdipper you too make a good point - the kind of band that needs prominent keys would probably either have it already or I'd find it too steep a learning curve to replace what they had lost. I did think about starting it myself but I'm not very organised, and it'd just turn into another solo idea instead

@guitarfishbay yeah could do but my guitar isn't really up to scratch in any useful way unfortunately, think my vocals are stronger and that's saying something!

@winnie_pooh I will give them a listen on my commute tomorrow. I did chance upon a few Christine and the Queens songs this evening which have promise though they are sorry of synth based, mostly the sounds seem like synthy organs which would be achievable

menamestom

I played keys in a band for a while, bought myself a Nord Electro and played mainly funky Hammond style.

It was an original blues band but not 12 bar, some songs had a lot of chords in which I had to learn but most were jamming style songs.  I think the main thing I learned was that in a way compared to a real keyboard player I had an advantage in that I'm shit with my left hand, so with the Hammond style I would just staccato hit the bass notes now and again, whilst hitting a beat on the basic chords / pentatonic scales with he RH.  The problem with a lot of keyboard players is good as they are, they take up far too much sonic space in a band mix.

So just keep it simple, especially with the left hand that tends to compete with the bass player, unless like the Doors, you will be the bass player (which could be really good!)

Conversely, being in a band with a good guitarist helps, somebody who themselves is sympathetic to the sonic space. 

wave100

There is plenty of music out there that is keyboard based. My advice is to find some people you like playing music with, play what you like and if anyone else doesn't like it, fuck em! It sounds like you can actually play a bit (unlike me, I'm a synth player!) but you don't even have to call it "jazz" or "funk" or whatever. Make something new!

olafgarten

I'd try and get an 88 key that can cover the basic sounds (Piano, Rhodes, Hammond, Harpsichord) and then try and find ways to compliment the song. It's not always feasible to play exactly to the record live as it sounds bad, so you might have to remove some parts and simplify. 

thecolourbox

Thanks all for the input, I've done quite a lot of listening and reading of everything you chaps have kindly shared and unfortunately I think I've come to the conclusion that it won't be for me. This is for the following reasons:

- Indie type music seems to rely on really simple (to play) synth lines that seem to rely more on how to create wooshy noises than actual playing keys which is the opposite of what I'm good at. It sounds good in context don't get me wrong but I don't think I'd find that fun. It is strange how chord bashing to rhythm on a guitar is totally find but on a piano it just feels so dull There is also the flipside of this problem, that being...
- Music with fun or interesting parts to play on keys (and on recognisable standard sounds) seem to be jazz or funk based, which I've no real interest in playing as I've done it before. I don't really know what I was expecting to find between the two but I was hoping there would be something, which I've not found unfortunately. I think it's a case of pie in the sky and liking the idea of something more than actually having to do anything about it.
- Somebody mentioned starting my own and making it keys centric with other instruments as support. I see what you mean and yes, if a band is already keys-centric they'll have a keys player already. However if I were doing that I'd probably feel much more comfortable just doing it myself in full, ie not needing a band as the music I like to try and come up with uses more robotic electric drums, and it'd just be easier to have the full reigns myself. 

I couldn't do the guitar & keys idea either, my guitar playing is really not up to playing in public alongside other people.

I will keep listening around though just in case, if anybody has any experiences to share please do

Thanks