Martins no longer 'Made in USA'

elkay

I recently scored a virtually new Martin 000-18 for a bargain on that notorious auction site. Buying acoustics there, or buying blind from anywhere for that matter, is highly risky, but, for the price, I was prepared to take a chance. The good news is that this turned out to be just about the best sounding Martin I have ever played (with the exception of my J40). Anyway, the real issue here is that, when I gave the guitar a thorough examination, I noticed that the strip that usually says 'CF Martin & Co., Nazareth P.A., Made in USA' was missing the last bit, which gave me a bit of a fright. My immediate thought was that I had bought a fake. However, some considerable Googling later eventually disclosed a few pictures of new Martins with similar omissions, which somewhat re-assured me. Eventually, I came upon some items which disclosed that from 2015 Martin had stopped putting 'Made in USA' on their guitars because of some ridiculous Californian statute that ruled that a product could not be described as 'Made in USA' if any parts, tuners for instance, were made elsewhere. How absurd is that? I had missed this before, so this was news to me. I don't know if this has been mentioned or discussed here before, but I thought I'd bring it up should any prospective Martin purchasers be similarly confounded.

sweepy

There were Martins made by Tokai Custom Shop a few years ago, these were sold as Tokai Cats eye and the part built guitars finally assembled in the US ere sold as Martins

ICBM

Some of the low-end models are made in Mexico too - the Backpacker and the Little Martin definitely, not sure how far up the range it goes.

Why does it matter, really? Judge them on the quality not which country they were made in - I'm confident that Martin wouldn't put their name on anything crap. In some ways removing the country of origin label is a positive step.

President Trump may have a different opinion of course...

Sassafras

If it's one of the best sounding Martins you've played, the country of origin can't matter that much. There are craftsmen all over the world.

elkay

I think you're missing the point here. This is not about where Martins are made, but rather about the fact that they are not described as being made in the USA any longer (they're still made in the US, just not described as such). I'm not the least bit concerned where a Martin, or any guitar for that matter, is made, Outer Mongolia for all I care, as long as quality is manitained (no disrespect intended to Outer Mongolia). The issue is about something not being what you expect, more specifically the possibility that it is a fake because a label is not as you expect. I certainly judge a guitar by its quality, not by its label or where its made. However, I would expect to pay the correct price for it. Forgers can create masterpieces which are virtually undistinguishable from the real thing, but, if the fakes look just as good, why should it matter? Well, here's why. If I paid several million for a Canaletto, I'm not going to be happy to discover that its a cheap fake costing 50 quid. Sure, I'd be happy to buy it and hang it up in my living room because it looks just as good, but for £50, not for several million. By the same token, I'd be happy to buy a £100 fake guitar that sounds as good as a Martin, regardless of where its made, but not for the price of a Martin. Can you imagine the scenario should I wish to sell it on? Mr. Customer, I'm selling this cheap fake for the price of a Martin because it sounds as good as one. I doubt I'd get any takers.

ICBM

The fact that it has a current, correct, California-compliant label with no 'Made In U.S.A.' is actually the proof it's genuine, if you think about it. Fakers would put the standard print on - just like the typical Chinese Gibson fakes which cheerfully say "Made In USA' below the serial number on the back.

RandallFlagg

My 2015 D28 has 'CF Martin & Co, Nazareth PA' with no Made in USA. The build quality is very high and it is clearly not a fake!

The thing with the stamp on the back join strip inside the guitar is that when played the writing is upside down, seems odd to me.

Strat_a_tat_tat

RandallFlagg said:
The thing with the stamp on the back join strip inside the guitar is that when played the writing is upside down, seems odd to me.

I think you've got one of the Australian export models.

ToneControl

ICBM said:

Some of the low-end models are made in Mexico too - the Backpacker and the Little Martin definitely, not sure how far up the range it goes.

Why does it matter, really? Judge them on the quality not which country they were made in - I'm confident that Martin wouldn't put their name on anything crap. In some ways removing the country of origin label is a positive step.

President Trump may have a different opinion of course...

yes, I agree, you can get USA/UK level stuff from China, Indonesia, etc, or complete junk
It's to much to expect  punters to know which is the best Korean factory 

It's been a bit of a minefield for makers for  a while now:
how do you  distinguish between your different levels of product?
Car makers have been perfecting their approach for 100 years

Fender have come unstuck at least a couple of times:  Japanese squiers,  Korean Lite-Ash Fenders
I think they are getting there now

Mind you,  a consistent  approach for 10+ years is needed, so that people can have valid opinions about pros/cons for each range

RandallFlagg

Strat_a_tat_tat said:

RandallFlagg said:
The thing with the stamp on the back join strip inside the guitar is that when played the writing is upside down, seems odd to me.

I think you've got one of the Australian export models.

Maybe, it does seem to want to play Rolf Harris tunes easily

ICBM

ToneControl said:

Fender have come unstuck at least a couple of times:  Japanese squiers,  Korean Lite-Ash Fenders

I think they are getting there now

Mind you,  a consistent  approach for 10+ years is needed, so that people can have valid opinions about pros/cons for each range

The problem is that it changes over time. When the first Japanese Squiers came out, Japan was still seen as an inferior country of origin despite Yamaha, Ibanez, Aria etc having made top-quality instruments for more than five years by then. Now, those same Japanese Squiers are worth more than the standard US models of similar years - rightly - and maybe more than later Japanese Fenders…

Some of the Korean and even Chinese-made Fenders - remember the Telecoustic? - were a mistake in my opinion though, they should have been Squiers. Not because of where they were made but simply because they weren't very high quality. Equally, some of the more recent Chinese Squiers are arguably better than some similar Fender-badged instruments. It's all a bit of a minefield really.

I've even seen people claim some sort of premium for Korean manufacture rather than Chinese, although that's also to do with the old-is-better snobbery in the guitar market.

ToneControl

ICBM said:

ToneControl said:

Fender have come unstuck at least a couple of times:  Japanese squiers,  Korean Lite-Ash Fenders

I think they are getting there now

Mind you,  a consistent  approach for 10+ years is needed, so that people can have valid opinions about pros/cons for each range

The problem is that it changes over time. When the first Japanese Squiers came out, Japan was still seen as an inferior country of origin despite Yamaha, Ibanez, Aria etc having made top-quality instruments for more than five years by then. Now, those same Japanese Squiers are worth more than the standard US models of similar years - rightly - and maybe more than later Japanese Fenders…

Some of the Korean and even Chinese-made Fenders - remember the Telecoustic? - were a mistake in my opinion though, they should have been Squiers. Not because of where they were made but simply because they weren't very high quality. Equally, some of the more recent Chinese Squiers are arguably better than some similar Fender-badged instruments. It's all a bit of a minefield really.

I've even seen people claim some sort of premium for Korean manufacture rather than Chinese, although that's also to do with the old-is-better snobbery in the guitar market.

I thought the Korean Lite ash were better than usual. I have one, it's better than  the Mexican  ones I've owned, for example

ICBM

ToneControl said:

I thought the Korean Lite ash were better than usual. I have one, it's better than  the Mexican  ones I've owned, for example

Yes, I agree - certainly better than the standard-series Mexican ones. There are also Korean-made Fenders which are pretty poor, not as good as some of the better Squiers either from Korea or China, let alone Japan. It makes it very difficult for less well-informed buyers to know what they're getting, especially second hand where the original price doesn't always help.

AliGorie

u'd think it REALLY mattered, it's just some bits of dead trees - from who knows where - stuck together.
To many good alternatives out there.

usedtobe

Outer Mongolian guitars are shit, though.

Fuengi

Essentially, we should ignore the name on the label and compare cost / value. Hard to do though when inevitably we have all been inspired to pick up a particular guitar because we've seen somebody playing one. It's deep seated. 

I have a family member who plays but just wants a Strat / Les Paul / Martin Acoustic to hang on the wall in his lounge, doesn't bother him what they sound like really. 

I read an article this year about how guitars above £1500 are mostly bought by middle aged men, not by upcoming, exciting young guitarists.