Where do you place your Mic?

Si_

Mic'ing my cab up for the first time at a gig on Friday night and read loads and watched lots of Youtube videos about mic placement. I'm using an E606 and testing at home I've got it placed about 1" off the centre  of the cap. Time is tight on Friday night and we don't have a sound man so probably won't have much time (if any) to tweak so wanted to get a good idea of a starting point.

Just wondering where others generally place their mic (and what mic you are using).

Si

guitarfishbay

A good starting point is often somewhere between the cone and cap edge on this picture.  Soundwise it will be brighter towards the cap, and less bright as you move away from it but it probably won't matter too much live, anything in that area should sound ok.  Placing the mic actually on the cap with a distorted sound often makes it too bright IME.

Cirrus

When recording, you'll find it's worth going to great lengths to get the positioning just right, even a cm of movement will make an audible difference.

Live, I find nobody really cares that much. The priority is just getting some form of guitar sound to the desk, so the mic is usually stuck in the sound engineer's favourite position with no further thought, then they move on to more important tasks like spending 5 hours on the drums or getting too wasted to mix. 

Using the above diagram @guitarfishbay posted, using a 606 I'd start with the mic as close to the grill cloth as you can get it, directly over the "cap edge" dot. That'll get you the loudest sound, least coloured by cone distortion. Any differences you might induce by subtle movement of the mic will be largely lost between the horror-inducing reality of a live rock mix, typical poor venue acoustics, the variations in the sound people hear depending on where they stand, and the fact that at least 50% of the time (in my experience at least) you turn round halfway through the set to find that you or a bandmate has accidentally kicked the mic so it's pointing at the floor. And nobody even noticed. 

:-<

Si_

Cirrus said:

Using the above diagram @guitarfishbay posted, using a 606 I'd start with the mic as close to the grill cloth as you can get it, directly over the "cap edge" dot. That'll get you the loudest sound, least coloured by cone distortion. Any differences you might induce by subtle movement of the mic will be largely lost between the horror-inducing reality of a live rock mix, typical poor venue acoustics, the variations in the sound people hear depending on where they stand, and the fact that at least 50% of the time (in my experience at least) you turn round halfway through the set to find that you or a bandmate has accidentally kicked the mic so it's pointing at the floor. And nobody even noticed. 

:-<

That's exactly how I've got it now so will give that a go on Friday, thanks. Generally I've not bothered mic'ing up the cab and just used the cab for all sound, but thought I'd give it a go due to a larger venue, and going down to a single guitar in the band.

guitarfishbay

You should do fine then Si.  Fair points raised by Cirrus too.

ICBM

Cirrus said:

Using the above diagram @guitarfishbay posted, using a 606 I'd start with the mic as close to the grill cloth as you can get it, directly over the "cap edge" dot. That'll get you the loudest sound, least coloured by cone distortion. Any differences you might induce by subtle movement of the mic will be largely lost between the horror-inducing reality of a live rock mix, typical poor venue acoustics, the variations in the sound people hear depending on where they stand, and the fact that at least 50% of the time (in my experience at least) you turn round halfway through the set to find that you or a bandmate has accidentally kicked the mic so it's pointing at the floor. And nobody even noticed. 

:-<

Exactly. For a gig, anywhere in front of the speaker that's probably not right over the cap works well (and even that's usually OK). I wouldn't get too fussy about it - far more affects the out-front sound… if the sound engineer turns the treble knob it will make much more difference. If the venue is small and you're getting significant level from the amp out in the room anyway the sound from the mic will be largely covered by the direct sound too.

I use an SM57 and in the past I've even mic'ed the back of the speaker in a combo, largely for stage space reasons. Worked fine.

@koneguitarist has mentioned before that he uses a cheap speaker-emulating DI box, and when he asked some sound engineers to compare it to a mic, no-one could tell which was which. I believe him .

In a recording studio it does matter… but that's different.

guitarfishbay

The only reason I'd advocate avoiding the centre of the cap is that in my experience of live rock guitar most people have a lot of high end in their distorted tones already - often more than they think.  The cap edge / cone position usually gives a bit of a better balance but I agree that what happens at the desk will matter more and comments on other limitations/variables.

ICBM

guitarfishbay said:

The only reason I'd advocate avoiding the centre of the cap is that in my experience of live rock guitar most people have a lot of high end in their distorted tones already - often more than they think.  The cap edge / cone position usually gives a bit of a better balance but I agree that what happens at the desk will matter more.

Agreed, although if you need to err, err on the side of too much treble at the mic - it usually sounds better to roll off treble at the desk than to add it, for some reason.

Putting the amp where the player can actually hear it properly tends to help with excessive high-end too .

Cirrus

I find that soundmen sometimes default to dead centre of the dustcap when the venue has lots of newb bands that play muddy little line 6 combos etc set to overly mellow "bedroom distortion" sounds. You can usually tell who these guys are because when they see an ac30 cab they need to feel the cloth to find out where the speakers are.

ICBM

Cirrus said:

I find that soundmen sometimes default to dead centre of the dustcap when the venue has lots of newb bands that play muddy little line 6 combos etc set to overly mellow "bedroom distortion" sounds. You can usually tell who these guys are because when they see an ac30 cab they need to feel the cloth to find out where the speakers are.

The guitarist in my band had one of those Marshall HW 2x12" cabs which are like a little 4x12" with the speakers mounted diagonally… you wouldn't believe the number of engineers who mic'ed the wrong corner, over the plain baffle! Sometimes he didn't tell them, since it meant he could turn the amp up a bit more .

koneguitarist

To qualify ICBM's comment. I use a Peavey EDI speaker emulating box, it's passive and has a small pot for timbre, fine adjustment on mid range it seems. In a studio you would often use two mic's, something like a SM57 on cone and a ambient mic, to get more of the room.

In that situation I could quite easily use the EDI box and no one would be the wiser, if it was just one mic against it, I would probably use a mic, as you can find a sweet spot sometimes by carefull positioning of mic. EDI box would only be able to use desk EQ.

In a live on stage situation, I honestly cannot see why anyone would use a mic. The negatives far out weight the positives compared to a good DI box like the Peavey, Red Box or Palmer etc etc.

Just my experience only, maybe other guitarists have ears like a bat, but the audience don't !

guitarfishbay

Palmer's speaker sim/load box things get used by a lot of touring pros these days. Bonamassa and Tremonti are two big names that come to mind. If you have megabucks the two notes torpedo does the same job but can load IRs.

steamabacus

Sound on Sound did a great article  a few years ago about mic'ing guitar cabs, complete with sound files. It can be found here...

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug07/articles/guitaramprecording.htm

Si_

koneguitarist said:

In a live on stage situation, I honestly cannot see why anyone would use a mic. The negatives far out weight the positives compared to a good DI box like the Peavey, Red Box or Palmer etc etc.

Just my experience only, maybe other guitarists have ears like a bat, but the audience don't !

Simple.. Price, £50 for a Mic or £350 for the palmer box.. 

I'm not impressed at all by the Palmer.

I've done all that emulated this and IR that.. been down the AxeFx Route (3 times). Just want to stick to a Valve amp and a Mic.. job done.

Danny1969

When mic'ing live it's more a case of putting it at a slight angle away from the drums, so you can minimize the amount of spill it will pick up. The E606 is pretty good (being a supercardioid mic) at rejecting off axis spill but a slight tilt away from the direction of the drums will help even more. 

If you have a 2 x 12 or 4 x 12 cab  mic the speaker driver that's furthest away from the drums. Put the mic so it's face is about halfway between edge of cone and centre and then angle it slightly away from the drums or whatever else your trying not to pickup. That will be 95% a winner every time. 

koneguitarist

Si_ said:

koneguitarist said:

In a live on stage situation, I honestly cannot see why anyone would use a mic. The negatives far out weight the positives compared to a good DI box like the Peavey, Red Box or Palmer etc etc.

Just my experience only, maybe other guitarists have ears like a bat, but the audience don't !

Simple.. Price, £50 for a Mic or £350 for the palmer box.. 

I'm not impressed at all by the Palmer.

I've done all that emulated this and IR that.. been down the AxeFx Route (3 times). Just want to stick to a Valve amp and a Mic.. job done.

Hard to tell with that video whats what as they are constantly changing tones and volumes etc.

As for wanting to go simple that's what I have done, I just plug an XLR straight into the box, which I have hardwired into amp, so simpler than a mic, no positioning, no stand, no accidental knocking mic off axis on small stage, no feedback, no spill. Just consistent tone every time !

http://www.ccmusicshop.com/peavey-edi-direct-box-pid-952897.html mine is much older looking than that. but how much is a SM57 these days ?

ThePrettyDamned

That edi box looks pretty great, actually..

So it would go, on my bandit, between the power amp out and speaker? So unplug that, pop the box in and send to desk?

Clever stuff, and a great price.

ICBM

I haven't liked any of the Palmer stuff I've tried either, which admittedly hasn't been for a while so not the newest models.

I do remember the Peavey EDI as being quite good, and I liked the H&K Red Box as well... but the best I've tried by a large margin is the Sequis Motherload. Yes, it's expensive, and it's the size of a decent studio condenser mic kit as well (comes in the same sort of carry box, in fact), but it sounds fantastic and also doubles as an attenuator or load box so it kills two birds with one stone.

If you don't want to spend that much the Red Box is still cheaper than an SM57. The Behringer one is even less.

koneguitarist

ThePrettyDamned said:

That edi box looks pretty great, actually..

So it would go, on my bandit, between the power amp out and speaker? So unplug that, pop the box in and send to desk?

Clever stuff, and a great price.

I am not sure if it works on Tranny amps ? ICBM may know, this was developed for Valve amps as far as I am aware.,

 

ICBM

I tried the Redbox, but found it lightly harsh, plus a lot more money and having a battery was a no no for me. Have not heard of the Sequis ?

ICBM

The ones like the EDI and the Red Box can be used safely with a solid-state amp since they do not actually load the amp (not significantly, anyway). You can also connect them to an extension speaker jack without needing to run the main speaker path through them, for the same reason. The Motherload *should* be OK with most solid-state amps, but if in any doubt, don't - you can just use its line input without the load section.

The Red Box doesn't require a battery, it can run on phantom power - I did always keep a battery in mine as a backup though. I know what you mean about the sound, I found it not so much harsh as a bit boxy and middy, which as you know by now is my pet hate . But perfectly usable in a live mix. (And actually a 57 is pretty middy too!)

The Sequis is a very nice bit of kit, British made, very comprehensive, and surprisingly powered only by the amp! Even the Elemental which I have (the basic one) has a lot of good features and sounds great. The full-on rack version is probably more suited to a touring rig or a studio.

maltingsaudio

I nearly always feel the cloth of an amp to see where the speaker is and like to mic them between the dust cap and the edge. Th is is just to make sure I get the speaker as I'm not familiar with every amp I come across. I use both 57's and 906's the 906 is quite often hung from the amp strap and so flat on the grll/cloth though better on a stand. The advantage of it being hung is of course it can't ( in most cases) get knocked, although out of choice I would prefer them on a stand. On the desk I tend to leave the 906 flat and will start with a 57 with a little scoop at 125 HZ then adjust both mics to  sound to suit how I think it should sound unless I get specific instructons from the guitarist. The same goes for di'd guitars unless i get specific instructions on how it should sound I have yet to come across a signal from any of them which couldn't be tweeked to suit.

Whilst I often get guitarists who will profer a choce of which mic they want on their amp I have only ever come across one who wanted to position his own guitar amp mic