At what stage does a Fender Strat become just a Strat

Rocker

This might have been covered before, apologies if it was, but the recent thread on converting a Gibson LPJ to a LPS got me thinking.  And wondering when does a Fender [or a Gibson, Epiphone etc.] become just a generic modified guitar.  Take my Epiphone Les Paul for example.  I changed the tuners, the strap buttons and fitted SD pickups, is it still an Epi LP or has it morphed into a partscaster LP?  Fender guitars are very modifiable so how much needs to be changed on the guitar to render it no longer legitimate to carry the Fender name and logo?  This question applies to all guitars of course and not just Fenders......

Jimbro66

I'd say it's when you change the body and/or neck. Even that's debateable but IMO most people, if it had the original Fender body and neck, would regard it as an 'upgraded Strat' rather than a partscaster.

I have a Fender which has very little left of the original guitar other than the neck (with the F-word on it ) and tuners and a few bits and pieces. It would probably be regarded as a partscaster  -  and therefore quite possibly devalued even though it is now a much better guitar than it originally was.

ICBM

Rocker said:

Take my Epiphone Les Paul for example.  I changed the tuners, the strap buttons and fitted SD pickups, is it still an Epi LP or has it morphed into a partscaster LP?

Unquestionably still an Epiphone.

Rocker said:

Fender guitars are very modifiable so how much needs to be changed on the guitar to render it no longer legitimate to carry the Fender name and logo?

Not quite so simple... the difficult bit is that a Fender neck with a genuine logo is always a Fender neck - so the issue is, is it questionable/illegal to sell a Fender guitar which started off as a genuine Fender but everything has been replaced bar the neck - either at the same time or at different times? And if so, is that different to selling a partscaster with a Fender neck that was *never* a Fender guitar?

My opinion is that the neck itself can never be illegal because it is still a genuine Fender product regardless of what body it's attached to, but that you shouldn't sell a partscaster where the neck is the only original part as a Fender, however it was arrived at - even by a 'Trigger's Broom' process.

Other than that I would look at it as a proportion - if the neck and body are original, it's a Fender even if all the hardware has been changed. Equally if *just* the body has been changed, it's still a Fender. But that's just my opinion.

A further problem is that legally, a guitar assembled entirely from genuine Fender parts that were not once part of the same guitar is still not a 'Fender guitar'.

mart

ICBM said:
...

A further problem is that legally, a guitar assembled entirely from genuine Fender parts that were not once part of the same guitar is still not a 'Fender guitar'.

So it would be illegal to sell Clapton's Blackie? I've heard this before, but it always strikes me as crazy.

ICBM

mart said:

So it would be illegal to sell Clapton's Blackie? I've heard this before, but it always strikes me as crazy.

Technically, yes. If the guitar was not assembled by Fender then it is not a Fender guitar, and if it has the Fender logo on it it is therefore a counterfeit! So theoretically illegal to sell.

It makes more sense as to why this should be so if you think of someone buying loads of Fender replacement parts and building guitars out of them, then selling the results as 'Fenders'.

mart

ICBM said:

...
It makes more sense as to why this should be so if you think of someone buying loads of Fender replacement parts and building guitars out of them, then selling the results as 'Fenders'.

Yeah, I get that. I'm not entirely convinced by it, since Fenders were so much designed to be serviceable. 

It probably makes more sense just accepting it as an odd quirk arising from a fair attempt at drawing a legal line somewhere.

AustrianJohn

So what about Gilmour's black strat after it was fitted with a Charvel neck (with a Fender logo) - was that still a Fender? And if not, did it become a Fender again when a Fender neck (with non-Fender tuners) was fitted? And if not, are the Fender-made Gilmour black strat signature models really Fenders? My head hurts.

ICBM

AustrianJohn said:

So what about Gilmour's black strat after it was fitted with a Charvel neck (with a Fender logo) - was that still a Fender?

Not really.

AustrianJohn said:

And if not, did it become a Fender again when a Fender neck (with non-Fender tuners) was fitted?

Not technically.

AustrianJohn said:

And if not, are the Fender-made Gilmour black strat signature models really Fenders?

Yes.

AustrianJohn said:

My head hurts.

How about "did the original one become a Fender again when Fender bought Charvel?"

impmann

Isn't it ironic that Fender make a clone of a Partcaster and yet certain folks bang on about them getting narky about non-Fenders? And not just Gilmour's black Strat or Blackie (or Brownie for that matter - as that is an amalgum). A large number of famous player's instruments could be deemed as 'partcasters' or "semi-legal" Fenders.

Another oddity is Elvis Costello's Jazzmaster - is it now a "60s Fender", after all the fingerboard was replaced in the 80s (complete with his name inlaid into it), the pickups have been rewound, its had at least one pickguard change, that awful paintjob (not my bag, Elvis... sorry) and now sports a Mastery bridge. Admittedly, the reissue they did was of the dowdy brown stripped finish though...

Some have said that Hendrix's white Strat from Woodstock was a bitsa - certainly, there are pictures of "another" white Strat from the same period sporting a rosewood board...

As mentioned above Leo designed the guitar to be modular and serviceable by replacing parts of the guitar. The whole point of a bolt on neck is to facilitate replacement (and cheap manufacture). So if something has been taken apart, repaired and put back together by someone other than Fender its a grey area, that would make nearly every pre-CBS guitar a non-Fender as accessing the truss rod is made easier by undoing the neck bolts....

Its bollocks really, isn't it? And there are lots of things that folks should be getting more worked up about than worrying about protecting someone else's copyright!

FelineGuitars

There is a simple rule of thumb in the mindsets of buyers it seems..

If you upgrade a cheap guitar like a squier or epiphone , and you can change every component and gold plate it and cover it in real diamonds ....it's still a Squier or Epi and you should be happy to take £50 for it

If you customise an expensive USA Fender or Gibson, even a custom shop model it also becomes a Squier or Epi and you should be happy to take £50 for it

WezV

AustrianJohn said:

So what about Gilmour's black strat after it was fitted with a Charvel neck (with a Fender logo) - was that still a Fender? And if not, did it become a Fender again when a Fender neck (with non-Fender tuners) was fitted? And if not, are the Fender-made Gilmour black strat signature models really Fenders? My head hurts.

Charvel also converted some old fenders and put their logo on them.  Jake E Lee's white Charvel started out as a 70's hardtail sunburst strat.  It has all new hardware, a little woodwork and a refinish, but was still the old fender body and neck at the core

shuikit

If I take my completely stock Fender and disassemble it, probably so I can polish each screw or something and then reassemble it using the exact same parts, is it still a Fender?

ICBM

FelineGuitars said:

There is a simple rule of thumb in the mindsets of buyers it seems..

If you upgrade a cheap guitar like a squier or epiphone , and you can change every component and gold plate it and cover it in real diamonds ....it's still a Squier or Epi and you should be happy to take £50 for it

If you customise an expensive USA Fender or Gibson, even a custom shop model it also becomes a Squier or Epi and you should be happy to take £50 for it

But if you're selling, then any guitar which has a legitimate Fender logo on the neck is a full-on Fender of wherever the neck was made and is worth just as much...

A lot of this stuff is daft, I know - but some of the things that people bring into the shop and try to sell as legit are quite funny, and we have to be careful to describe them correctly.

axisus

I had a Fender American Strat. Swapped the neck for a Warmoth I bought that was very nice. Swapped the body for a Squier! I was burning the finish off to do a refin, and liked the look of the burned body! Dropped Kinman pickups in.

I think it's fair to say it's not a Fender any more.

mart

shuikit said:

If I take my completely stock Fender and disassemble it, probably so I can polish each screw or something and then reassemble it using the exact same parts, is it still a Fender?

Yes, as I understand it, that is still a Fender.

But suppose I take two identical Strats, and take the necks off both, and then leave them in a room long enough to forget which neck came from which. Then when I put them back together, they may be Fenders or they may not, and nobody can tell.

They are Schrödingcasters.

fftc

axisus said:

I had a Fender American Strat. Swapped the neck for a Warmoth I bought that was very nice. Swapped the body for a Squier! I was burning the finish off to do a refin, and liked the look of the burned body! Dropped Kinman pickups in.

I think it's fair to say it's not a Fender any more.

Fair.

But if you put the original body and neck back together and build it with other parts then it's a modded Fender IMHO.
I think the only legal obligation is to describe it accurately if you sell. Perhaps different if someone is punting many guitars as a commercial operation, but not for a private seller selling one guitar.

stimpsonslostson

Yup, this has been covered before- with the same outcome. 
http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/85299/provenance/p1

usedtobe

Goes around, comes around...

AustrianJohn

usedtobe said:

Goes around, comes around...

But is the copy genuine?

usedtobe

AustrianJohn said:

usedtobe said:

Goes around, comes around...

But is the copy genuine?

Don't ask me, mate, me heads spinning!

WezV

usedtobe said:

AustrianJohn said:

usedtobe said:

Goes around, comes around...

But is the copy genuine?

Don't ask me, mate, me heads spinning!

I have put fake fender decals on genuine fender necks quite a few times.... never sure what that makes them.