Thought process when soloing?

Niallseroreilly

You have a slow backing track

Bmaj7, f#7, g#min7, emaj7.

Are you thinking scales? Arpeggios? Triads? Thirds? Sixths? Octaves? A mix of all.

Or just pure sound? No thought process..... open channel hitting buttons on the fretboard?

bluechargeboy

If I may paraphrase Guthrie Govan: there are at least six notes that work over each of those chords, and there are only 12 notes in total, so you can hit anything and you have a 50/50 chance of being right!

To answer the question seriously, I just had a go and it appears that I am be working off scales; mostly I'm aiming at a melody with no real thought process though, so mainly B major with aspects of the others and bits of arpeggios as I see fit.

octatonic

This is why you need to know the circle of 5ths.
You first need to work out what key you are in (or keys if there is a key change).

When you see two maj7th chords separated by a 4th (and hence also a 5th) you can quickly orient yourself around a particular major scale.

Harmonising the C Major Scale:

C = C maj7 <--------
D = D min7           |
E = E min7            |
F = F maj7<--------
G = G7
A = A min7
B = Dm7b5

Looking at the chord progression above you can e the two maj7 chords are Bmaj7 and Emaj7.
When you orient them so that you have one as the tonic with a 4th up to the other you realise that is Bmaj7 up to Emaj7.

So harmonising the B major scale:

B = Bmaj7
C# = C# min7
D#= D# min7
E = E maj7
F# = F#7 
G# = G# min7
A# = A# min7 b5

BUT WAIT, there is an even easier way to work out the key for this piece.
See the dominant 7 chord there- F#7- when you have a functioning dominant chord in a chord progression that does not change key then you just have to go down a 5th to get the key- a 5thdown from F# is B major.
Ideally you should be able to do this on the fly, which you will be able to do if you learn the circle of 5ths and the major scale in all keys.

What I actually think about when I'm actually soloing is very little- I've worked for years at practicing various things- scales, arpeggios, various licks and approaches to notes.
Once I have a tonal centre I just think melody, not mechanics.

If there is a key change then it is a slightly different approach but not massively different.

stickyfiddle

I'd be thinking about melodies (both rhythm and note choice) I could play that would sound good, then make my fingers do that. 

Niallseroreilly

octatonic said:

This is why you need to know the circle of 5ths.
You first need to work out what key you are in (or keys if there is a key change).

When you see two maj7th chords separated by a 4th (and hence also a 5th) you can quickly orient yourself around a particular major scale.

Harmonising the C Major Scale:

C = C maj7 <--------
D = D min7           |
E = E min7            |
F = F maj7<--------
G = G7
A = A min7
B = Dm7b5

Looking at the chord progression above you can e the two maj7 chords are Bmaj7 and Emaj7.
When you orient them so that you have one as the tonic with a 4th up to the other you realise that is Bmaj7 up to Emaj7.

So harmonising the B major scale:

B = Bmaj7
C# = C# min7
D#= D# min7
E = E maj7
F# = F#7 
G# = G# min7
A# = A# min7 b5

BUT WAIT, there is an even easier way to work out the key for this piece.
See the dominant 7 chord there- F#7- when you have a functioning dominant chord in a chord progression that does not change key then you just have to go down a 5th to get the key- a 5thdown from F# is B major.
Ideally you should be able to do this on the fly, which you will be able to do if you learn the circle of 5ths and the major scale in all keys.

What I actually think about when I'm actually soloing is very little- I've worked for years at practicing various things- scales, arpeggios, various licks and approaches to notes.
Once I have a tonal centre I just think melody, not mechanics.

If there is a key change then it is a slightly different approach but not massively different.

Love it mate thank you very helpful

viz

Ah, the axis of music or whatever it's called; that aside, just play what your heart is telling you to! Try not to let your fingers drive the note choice. Think of stories in your soloing. Like are you trying to play like an avalanche? Or a slow burn? Or heartache? Or simple beauty? Or a breathless sprint? That sort of thought process. Know the key as per Octa's post, and take the creative approach as per Sticky's and you'll write something amazing! Then you've just got to play it well!

axisus

Hmmn ... up a note or down a note? Hmmn ... up a note or down a note? Hmmn ... up a note or down a note? Hmmn ... up a note or down a note? Hmmn ... up a note or down a note? Hmmn ... up a note or down a note? Hmmn ... up a note or down a note? Hmmn ... up a note or down a note? Hmmn ... up a note or down a note? Hmmn ... up a note or down a note? Hmmn ... up a note or down a note? Hmmn ... up a note or down a note? Hmmn ... up a note or down a note? 

Danny1969

That chord progression is actually a dressed up  I-V-vi-1V in essence ....  so for me it's something I've solo'ed over many terms before, so know what works. The phrases of my solo in this will almost always introduce something on the first chord, expand on it on the 2nd, go for sheer expression on the third chord rather than note choice and resolve it on the fourth with a note that is very much part of that chord .... rinse and repeat etc

Although I do know the notes in the scales I'm not actually so much as thinking of them as notes but intervals when solo'ing. So I know that bending up to the major third note of that last chord in the progression produces a certain resolved flourish for example. It's all tricks like that 

notanon

Learn Jazz - I Jest not, a jazz player told me once that the most you can be is a semi tone out in which case you use that as a passing tone if you are a professional ;-) Oh I wish I could play with such confidence!

octatonic

notanon said:

Learn Jazz - I Jest not, a jazz player told me once that the most you can be is a semi tone out in which case you use that as a passing tone if you are a professional ;-) Oh I wish I could play with such confidence!

That is the most quoted and yet most useless piece of information for anyone learning music.

What is better is to use a one up and two down (outd), or two up and now down (tuod) approach note pattern.
So if the note you are encapsulating is A then play G->Bb->A or Ab->B->A

Try playing some arpeggios using alternating outd/tuod encapsulation.

bingefeller

Niallseroreilly said:

You have a slow backing track

Bmaj7, f#7, g#min7, emaj7.

Are you thinking scales? Arpeggios? Triads? Thirds? Sixths? Octaves? A mix of all.

Or just pure sound? No thought process..... open channel hitting buttons on the fretboard?

For that I would think arpeggios and triads over each chord and not scales so much.

Bmaj7 = D# minor 7 arp, F# triad  
F#7 - E triad / F# triad
G#min7 - B maj7 arpeggio, F# triad
Emaj7 - just Emaj7 melodic lines.

Niallseroreilly

bingefeller said:

Niallseroreilly said:

You have a slow backing track

Bmaj7, f#7, g#min7, emaj7.

Are you thinking scales? Arpeggios? Triads? Thirds? Sixths? Octaves? A mix of all.

Or just pure sound? No thought process..... open channel hitting buttons on the fretboard?

For that I would think arpeggios and triads over each chord and not scales so much.

Bmaj7 = D# minor 7 arp, F# triad  
F#7 - E triad / F# triad
G#min7 - B maj7 arpeggio, F# triad
Emaj7 - just Emaj7 melodic lines.

I notice you are using different chord triads over different chords-  whats the 'rules' on this?

Niallseroreilly

I know the 'if its sounds good' reason is essentially enough, but is there a 'formula'?

viz

The key is B major and it's all diatonic, in other words all the chords use notes which are in the home key of B major (apart from the last one which has a flat 7 rather than a maj7, which borrows a minor 3rd from B minor, but you may decide not to bother with that little nuance), so you really don't need to worry about different chords, you just need to think of tunes which deploy the notes predominantly from the B major scale as a default, and then use melody-writing ideas, which are more guidelines or principles than note-by-note instructions. Some ideas below - there are many more! And don't just follow these religiously, use them to expand your thoughts and then just sing a good tune in your mind's ear, THEN try and play it. 

1) determine the 'character' or 'attitude' of the tune you want - fast, slow, soaring, monotone, agressive, etc - probably in sync with the character of the song. 

2) think about the structure of the solo - do you want to state a theme, then deviate from it and return to it at the end, maybe in a modified form? Or just take the tune on a journey from A to B (A and B are not notes in that context!), or repeat something endlessly while the chords shift underneath it, etc. 

3) think about light and shade: you can create interest through contrast if your solo is long enough - fast bits and slow bits, low bits and high bits, bits with notes on the beat vs off the beat, etc

4) think about tension and release - you can create dramatic tension by using suspensions, or overhangs from the previous chord, which resolve during the chord itself, eg at the end of the I chord you can play a B and hang on to it till after the chord change to V, and only after a couple of beats resolve it to A#, which is the major 3rd of F#. Similarly you can hang onto an A# after the change to chord vi, then resolve it down a tone to the G#, maybe via a short B. 

5) Although the chords are all diatonic with B major, you don't actually have to stick with those notes, you can play whatever you like. It's quite effective to switch between 'inside' and 'outside' notes, normally having inside as the default and slipping into outside at the end of a sequence before resolving back in again. So you could choose outside notes for the 4th chord - the E - or for the 4th and 8th measures of an 8-measure solo. Example of outside notes for the E7 could be that you could play E phrygian, focussing heavily on the m2, m3, m6 and m7 (F, G, C and D). It will sound odd, but if you play with intent and resolve nicely to the B major when it arrives, you'll get away with it. 

6) use rhythm to reinforce note choice - eg, you could choose a default rhythm that you use again and again during the solo, and deviate from it here and there, but come back to it. For example if you are using a lot of suspensions, assuming each bar has 8 quavers, then over a 2-bar measure you could accentuate quavers 1 3 6 9 11 14. Or 1 3 6 8 11 14, for a 'pushed' 2nd bar. 

7) use call-and-response to create story-telling. Play a little motif then repeat it, maybe an octave above, or more quietly, or with a bit of embellishment, in the next bar. 

8) use tricks such as bends to give the same swooping, soaring feel that singers can get. For example on chord I, you can play the high 3rd, the 4th and back to the 3rd (D#-E-D#) with a bend: on the B string, bend a tone up from 14th fret to create the major 3rd (would normally be 16th fret), then bend up another semitone for the E, then back down to the bent D#. Pluck each note and renew the bend for each note - try and do it like a singer would!

9) where you want more deliberate statements you can fatten your sound with octave chords or power chords, then use single notes for arguments.

10) 'build' using ascending scales. This creates a triumphant, inevitable feeling. Just as a rather obvious example at the end of the solo you could play, one note per beat (or octaves)

I) B C# D# E
V) F#______
vi) G# A# B C#
IV) D# E F# G# 
I) F#_____!


Gotta go but there are hundreds of concepts like those above. Read up on melody-writing. Then worry about the chords. Then put your hands in your pockets and sing the tunes you want. Then put them to your fingers.

Barney

I would probably use the scale of B major as a starting point creating melodies ..it would probably be loose starting point and i would use various arpeggios ..passing notes ect over it ...but really it depends on what style the backing is in and what feel you want to create .. .all the information of what you can play are really just starting points..... the main thing is what we want to create musically 

I think theory is great iff used ...on its own its not really much use ...its great way off explainig what could work over a given situation it isnt a rule that you must do that though...a few examples mentioned in the posts above will work they explain the raw materials will never create music ...they will give you ideas on different approaches and keep you in tune..but making music you need to manipulate these ideas...

Its sort of like ...heres a pile of words ...talk to me

ElectroDan

With regards to using a different arpeggio over a chord... Is there any particular reason why you'd use the ones mentioned above? Is this 'Super-imposing' triads?
Thanks to the guys answering. I'm sure I'm not the only one whose learned something today.

cruxiform

Niallseroreilly said:

You have a slow backing track

Bmaj7, f#7, g#min7, emaj7.

Are you thinking scales? Arpeggios? Triads? Thirds? Sixths? Octaves? A mix of all.

Or just pure sound? No thought process..... open channel hitting buttons on the fretboard?

I wing it...and hope for the best.

bingefeller

Niallseroreilly said:

bingefeller said:

Niallseroreilly said:

You have a slow backing track

Bmaj7, f#7, g#min7, emaj7.

Are you thinking scales? Arpeggios? Triads? Thirds? Sixths? Octaves? A mix of all.

Or just pure sound? No thought process..... open channel hitting buttons on the fretboard?

For that I would think arpeggios and triads over each chord and not scales so much.

Bmaj7 = D# minor 7 arp, F# triad  
F#7 - E triad / F# triad
G#min7 - B maj7 arpeggio, F# triad
Emaj7 - just Emaj7 melodic lines.

I notice you are using different chord triads over different chords-  whats the 'rules' on this?

ElectroDan said:

With regards to using a different arpeggio over a chord... Is there any particular reason why you'd use the ones mentioned above? Is this 'Super-imposing' triads?
Thanks to the guys answering. I'm sure I'm not the only one whose learned something today.

Just superimposing.  I have experimented and I know these sound good, to my ears, over those chords.  The triads are just ways of organising the notes when playing licks against those chords.  For example, the D# minor 7 arpeggio against the Bmaj7 chord will suggest a Bmaj9 sound.  

digitalscream

cruxiform said:

Niallseroreilly said:

You have a slow backing track

Bmaj7, f#7, g#min7, emaj7.

Are you thinking scales? Arpeggios? Triads? Thirds? Sixths? Octaves? A mix of all.

Or just pure sound? No thought process..... open channel hitting buttons on the fretboard?

I wing it...and hope for the best.

Indeed. My main thought process during solos is less of a "process" and more "a single word, repeated over and over until the singer comes back in".

"Shitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshitshit....phew"

octatonic

ElectroDan said:

With regards to using a different arpeggio over a chord... Is there any particular reason why you'd use the ones mentioned above? Is this 'Super-imposing' triads?
Thanks to the guys answering. I'm sure I'm not the only one whose learned something today.

This is where it starts getting pretty nerdy.

Say you have a dominant 7th chord- lets stick in C major because it is easiest to explain things.

G7 = GDBF
You can extend any dominant chord thusly:
G9 = GBDFA
G13 = GBDFACE
Let'd look at G13 for a minute: normally you wouldn't play the 11th if playing the full G13 chord but we are superimposing here so it might be useful to us.

There are two sub groupings of that chord that I find quite useful:

First is GBD and FACE.
GBD is just a regular major triad, but FACE is a major 7th chord.
In 'super funky muso jazz fusion' language this is playing a major 7th off the flat 7th of a dominant chord to imply a dominant 13th tonality.

Why? Because if you have other people in the band playing root notes and the major chord you can, as a soloist, go off an investigate some other things.
Just as an aside- the tension in a dominant chord comes from the dissonance between the major 3rd and the b5.
What is that interval? a flat 5th. Cool huh?

So any time you see a functioning dominant chord you could try playing a maj 7th chord off the flat 7th.
Try using some approach notes for some of the FACE- where you might play encapsulate some of the notes with a tone below and a semitone above (or vice versa)- it sounds really cool.

Another grouping is GBDF and ACE.
This is a simplified version of the above thing- GBDF is a dominant 7th chord.
ACE is a minor triad.
So another way of expressing a Dominant 13th chord is by taking a G7 chord and stacking a minor triad off the major 2nd.
This isn't as common a way to think about things so I won't hang too much on it.

The stuff above ^^^ this essentially is how jazz musicians think.
You have different rules for extending minor 7th chords, or major 7th chords.
You can use b5 substitutions- in fact, let's do one now.

Say you have a ii V I in C:

Dm7 G7 Cmaj7
Try substituting the G7 for the same chord type a b5 above, which would be Db7

Replace that in the ii V I
So Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 becomes Dm7 Db7 Cmaj7- you've heard that before I am sure.

In fact anytime you see a dominant chord you could turn it into a ii V I, without or without a b5 sub.

If you are soloing over a blues, for example- you could turn the whole thing into iiV I's- it might not sound very good though.
This is where taste and style need to be employed- you should spend a bit of time trying this sort of thing out- it is easy to overuse.

ElectroDan

Thanks for answering.
I've been playing a long time and have developed enough technique/dexterity to play pretty much anything I want to. But I have never had a formal approach to putting a solo over anything. I've never had to do it on the spot so I've never worked at it. Anything that has been written to go over a song has come from listening until I can hear it in my mind and then been taught to or memorised by my fingers later.
I will have to have a play around with what you've suggested. I don't think the problem is that people don't want to learn this stuff. It's that there is such a lot to learn that it gets overwhelming trying to find what bits you can apply.