Today's Trumpy Tantrum

marantz1300

Capitalism exploits its workers.
thats how it works and thats how billionaires
are created.

Fretwired

p90fool said:

goldtop said:

Britain has plenty of leverage with the USA. But does May has the bottle to use it? Prior PMs haven't. Trump certainly would use the leverage if the roles were reversed.

What kind of leverage? Not disagreeing, I genuinely don't know.

Intelligence - GCHQ is a world beating data gathering and analysis centre; health - the UK is a leader in research that major US companies and healthcare providers benefit from; defence - the UK exports billions of pounds of defence products to the US and we import billions of pounds of kit the other way; Lloyd's of London and the City; we host US bases; our subs and anti-sub warning system protects the North Sea and Northern Atlantic .. and the Trident replacement. The US wants us to replace Trident so we can remain as their main ally on the UN Security Council.

Fretwired

Octafish said:

Fretwired said:

The UK is a net contributor. When we leave we'll have more cash.

Someone will have more cash. Very much doubt we (the plebs) will get/benefit from any of that money. It will be used to bribe special interest goups, give tax cuts to the rich, syphoned off to dodgy private contractors (which politicians hold a stake in) and ultimately buy the next election. I'm afraid the elite will still be alive and kicking.

A big chunk will go to funding the projects that used to get EU money and some will have to go to the NHS or May will face a shitstorm come the next election. She's gone on record to say a chunk would be spent (not the amount on the BoJo bus though).

marantz1300

Emp_Fab said:

I think we should do an about-turn, go running back to Europe professing love and promising we won't leave them again and treat the US as an over-familiar weird uncle who you keep at arm's length and avoid any eye-contact with.

Uncle Hitler

bingefeller

marantz1300 said:

Emp_Fab said:

I think we should do an about-turn, go running back to Europe professing love and promising we won't leave them again and treat the US as an over-familiar weird uncle who you keep at arm's length and avoid any eye-contact with.

Uncle Hitler

And there is Godwin's Law.  

ICBM

bingefeller said:

And there is Godwin's Law.  

I think we're a bit late for that where Trump is concerned.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

bingefeller said:

And there is Godwin's Law.  

I think we're a bit late for that where Trump is concerned.

Trump isn't Hitler.

Interesting to see that the 7 states Trump has banned from entering the USA have bans themselves - on Israelis, Jews and anyone who has visited Israel. I'm looking for the liberals campaigning against this ...

bingefeller

ICBM said:

bingefeller said:

And there is Godwin's Law.  

I think we're a bit late for that where Trump is concerned.

at least Hitler was, and still is, popular with with Muslims.  

ThePrettyDamned

Fretwired said:

ICBM said:

bingefeller said:

And there is Godwin's Law.  

I think we're a bit late for that where Trump is concerned.

Trump isn't Hitler.

Interesting to see that the 7 states Trump has banned from entering the USA have bans themselves - on Israelis, Jews and anyone who has visited Israel. I'm looking for the liberals campaigning against this ...

I think that the USA, being a super power that claims to be about equality and opportunity, and often claims to be the greatest nation in the world, probably should set an example. Certainly some of my friends who are being quite vocal about all this are aware that many other countries have bans that are equally or more racist/discriminatory but it's fair to say that they're not as super-power-ish as the USA. 

So it's bigger news when a super power does this stuff. 

Fretwired

ThePrettyDamned said:

Fretwired said:

ICBM said:

bingefeller said:

And there is Godwin's Law.  

I think we're a bit late for that where Trump is concerned.

Trump isn't Hitler.

Interesting to see that the 7 states Trump has banned from entering the USA have bans themselves - on Israelis, Jews and anyone who has visited Israel. I'm looking for the liberals campaigning against this ...

I think that the USA, being a super power that claims to be about equality and opportunity, and often claims to be the greatest nation in the world, probably should set an example. Certainly some of my friends who are being quite vocal about all this are aware that many other countries have bans that are equally or more racist/discriminatory but it's fair to say that they're not as super-power-ish as the USA. 

So it's bigger news when a super power does this stuff. 

Or let's face it people don't like the USA or Trump.

I get what your saying but it doesn't stack up - surely the USA can do what it likes. Dianne Abbott was silent as Blair invaded Iraq and Obama bombed Syria but her lungs were bellowing at the anti-Trump rally in London. Are we really saying it's OK to kill people but banning people from entering your country ranks as something as heinous as gassing people (Trump is being called Hitler). Or do we have a wider issue with anti-Semitism?

holnrew

I don't like Obama's foreign policy, not at all. But everything Trump has done in under two weeks sets a terrifying precedent for the rest of his presidency. 

Fretwired

holnrew said:

I don't like Obama's foreign policy, not at all. But everything Trump has done in under two weeks sets a terrifying precedent for the rest of his presidency. 

I can't disagree with you .. however, my gripe is the inconsistency of the moaning classes.  For example, Lilly Allen hasn't come out shouting about the migrant deaths in the overcrowded Greek camps or the bombs dropped from US, British, French and Russian planes which have killed thousands of Syrians ... she's got on the trendy anti-Trump bandwagon.

octatonic

holnrew

Fretwired said:

holnrew said:

I don't like Obama's foreign policy, not at all. But everything Trump has done in under two weeks sets a terrifying precedent for the rest of his presidency. 

I can't disagree with you .. however, my gripe is the inconsistency of the moaning classes.  For example, Lilly Allen hasn't come out shouting about the migrant deaths in the overcrowded Greek camps or the bombs dropped from US, British, French and Russian planes which have killed thousands of Syrians ... she's got on the trendy anti-Trump bandwagon.

Definitely. The face of left politics is awful and definitely hypocritical. I want more like Dennis Skinner and no more Diane Abbott types. Make things about actual equality rather than bringing in perceived race and gender bias.

Clarky

Fretwired said:
she's got on the trendy anti-Trump bandwagon. 

I think you have a point here…
I'm not a fan of Trump.. to be honest I thought he was simply one alternative of two possible evils..
but I think the protests etc world wide are becoming a bit of a fashion thing
I was listening to LBC a few days ago in the car and folks were calling in and ranting about him being a racist cos he's banned all muslims entering the US..
the thing is, he actually hasn't.. he's only banned / wants deeper screening for people from 7 specific countries..
sure these countries are majority muslim, but it's not like he's banned all from the whole world..
Indonesia, which has the largest muslim population on earth by far is not on the list along with many others..
interestingly though, Pakistan is not on the list.. that surprised me given that it's a refuge / hq for some pretty serious organisations..

there are loads of ways to look at this..
- a national leader making good on campaign promises: which is actually pretty fkn rare
- a temporary broad brush measure put in place until something better can be sorted out because there's a lack of faith that current measures are sufficient
- and of course all the things the folks are protesting about

given the dreadful things that have happened in France and Germany over the last 18 months or so, coupled with the US as being the number 1 hated country by the extremists, I'm finding it a little difficult to criticise their heavy handed caution..
I'm not pro or anti Trump at all.. just looking at the insane world we're living in at the moment and wondering how countries can handle it, protect themselves from it..

ICBM

Fretwired said:

Trump isn't Hitler.

Obviously .

But there are still significant parallels with the way both of them have come to power. Trump is on record as having read Mein Kampf too - which is a little unusual for someone not studying political history or having a direct interest in Hitler.

I think you can be aware of the potential danger in what Trump is doing and compare him to Hitler without actually claiming he *is* Hitler...

Octafish

Fretwired said:

Octafish said:

Fretwired said:

The UK is a net contributor. When we leave we'll have more cash.

Someone will have more cash. Very much doubt we (the plebs) will get/benefit from any of that money. It will be used to bribe special interest goups, give tax cuts to the rich, syphoned off to dodgy private contractors (which politicians hold a stake in) and ultimately buy the next election. I'm afraid the elite will still be alive and kicking.

A big chunk will go to funding the projects that used to get EU money and some will have to go to the NHS or May will face a shitstorm come the next election. She's gone on record to say a chunk would be spent (not the amount on the BoJo bus though).

There's no guarantee of any of that, the Torys have next to no history of increasing public spending. Sure they will ensure natural Tory voters such as rich farmers/big business will not be out of pocket, but those areas of deprivation (generally not Tory voting) will likely have less money than before and it's almost a given that a lot of the money will be used to replace funding that will be lost due to higher earner/corporation tax cuts/dodge schemes, so in effect resdistributed back to the wealthiest.

As for the NHS, I'd like to think there'll be a shitstorm, but I some how doubt it. As someone with a parent with Parkinsons I know the resources have been viciously cut for some years now and it didn't stop enough people voting for more of the same at the last General Election.

With our our corrupt, undemocratic and adversarial electoral/governmental system (and pathetic opposition party) we can have governments that only 25% of the electorate actually want/vote for and the Torys are very good at targetting those votes. We only had an EU referendum as a result of the Tory gambling to win the last GE. If Cameron was certain he could have won without needing to promise an EU referendum, there would have been no referendum.

Fretwired

Octafish said:

There's no guarantee of any of that, the Torys have next to no history of increasing public spending.

Yes there is .. it's not extra spending just reallocation of existing money.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/further-certainty-on-eu-funding-for-hundreds-of-british-projects

Sambostar

Just to make the comparison that our politics and politicians are probably worse for controlling the press and exercising totalitarian control over the masses and to demonstrate just how precious our fragile democracy is from our own tyrants.

https://uk.yahoo.com/news/david-cameron-tried-daily-mail-061500280.html

No, the papers were not all in favour of Brexit, they swung about 80:20 in favour of staying as I recall, but let's not let facts get in the way of history.  Cameron really is a lowlife scumbag.  There is your Hitler right there.

HAL9000

octatonic said:

7. John resents paying an extra $1 for his avocado.

8. John starts buying his avocados from Sam.

9. Donald gets 20℅ of bugger all.