Thoughts on a new amp: Help Sought

xDottore

Hello, All. I'd like some help, if you can spare the time. I am mostly a 'home guitarist' and have a Yamaha THR and a Line 6 Flextone (and a rather knackered old Yamaha--see below). A friend has just asked me to join his band and I am thinking of a new amp for gigging (v small venues, I imagine) and band practice. I don't want to spend too much, so take budget as about £500 max. 

I'm somewhat embarrassed to say I'm not too sure yet what our style of music will be, but I suspect old rock standards, some Who, some Tom Petty etc. I'm more of a proto-jazzer, blues, African man at home.

Questions:
1. Do I need a new amp at all? Some people gig with the Flextone, but I've also heard that cranked up in a band setting it can't cut it. As I've never been able to crank it up, I can't say ;-)
2. I'm currently looking at an old Yamaha DG80-112 for £190. I'm something of a Yamaha fan (have two older guitars of theirs and a smaller G25-112 amp which arrived knackered from eBay [sigh]). Any thoughts?
3. Get the G25-112 fixed—but will it be up to the job?
4. Also looking at Yamaha G100-112 (for £130, but which also may require attention)—supposed to be Twin Reverb quality at a fraction of the price.
3. Alternatively, what about a Jet City amp and cabinet?
4. Or something else? Roland, Fender, DV Mark Jazz

Cheers

Voxman

Flextones are muddy beasts in the mix at gigging volumes.  

But here's a tip on the Flextone (I had a Flextone II Plus) that will change it totally - put a 7-band stomp EQ in the FX loop (not in front of the amp).  This will give you clean EQ & level boost without adding distortion (which is what you'll get if used in front of the amp).

This will give you massively more EQ control than from the on-board EQ alone, and will allow you to raise the mid frequencies which is what you need to cut through the mix at gigging volumes.  Also, raising the level slider up a notch will give you a really good clean EQ boost.  The EQ will take the blanket off your amp you never knew you had.  I typically use (broadly) a 'W' setting on my EQ pedal - from left to right which ups the bottom end, mids and higher frequencies in such a way that you retain a full tone but with way more punch.

I also use a BBE Sonic Stomp Maximiser after the EQ but also in the FX loop.  This also helps to give a much clearer tone & adds punch to cut through the mix, but in a slightly different way to the EQ.  The EQ & BBESSM work beautifully together.  

Trust me, once you've put an EQ in the FX loop, you'll think you have a new amp and you'll never play your Flextone again without it!  

Oh, and remember to get your amp off the floor!  Raise your amp off the ground by a foot or two and angle it a bit too - really helps in the mix with tone and volume.

Spikeedog

Yamaha THR 100h?

xDottore

Thanks, Voxman, very useful stuff in there and coincidentally I'd just been looking into EQ pedals for the very reasons you set out. Any particular one you'd recommend?

Voxman

Dottore said:

Thanks, Voxman, very useful stuff in there and coincidentally I'd just been looking into EQ pedals for the very reasons you set out. Any particular one you'd recommend?

Well, you don't need to spend a fortune.  I have a Boss GE-7 which is considered an industry standard but I also have a Behringer EQ700 that works and sounds exactly the same and was just a third of the price.  The Danelectro fish and chips EQ is also good.  

Some older GE7s are noisier than others but I think the new ones are pretty quiet. You can get the Boss GE-7 EQ modded or even buy one pre-modded, that is supposed to be quieter and with a slightly more sensitive EQ spectrum, but I've never been troubled by the very modest noise levels of either my GE-7 or EQ700.  

 If cost isn't an issue the MXR 10-band M-108 is very good, is quieter, and has both a gain and level slider too, but requires an 18v power supply.  

Typical prices are around £120 for the MXR M108, the Danelectro is around £35, EQ700 circa £25, and Boss GE7 circa £75-80. 

Used prices will be cheaper of course and a GE7 can be found for roughly 50-60% of the new cost.

All the above units are analogue. There is also the Boss EQ-20 which is a digital, dual switch 10 band programmable EQ. I had one and it was way overkill for what I needed, but sold it because it sounded too digital in the fx loop of my Vox Valvetronix AD120VTX and that amp preferred an analogue EQ. 

Cabicular

Voxman said:

Flextones are muddy beasts in the mix at gigging volumes.  

But here's a tip on the Flextone (I had a Flextone II Plus) that will change it totally - put a 7-band stomp EQ in the FX loop (not in front of the amp).  This will give you clean EQ & level boost without adding distortion (which is what you'll get if used in front of the amp).

This will give you massively more EQ control than from the on-board EQ alone, and will allow you to raise the mid frequencies which is what you need to cut through the mix at gigging volumes.  Also, raising the level slider up a notch will give you a really good clean EQ boost.  The EQ will take the blanket off your amp you never knew you had.  I typically use (broadly) a 'W' setting on my EQ pedal - from left to right which ups the bottom end, mids and higher frequencies in such a way that you retain a full tone but with way more punch.

I also use a BBE Sonic Stomp Maximiser after the EQ but also in the FX loop.  This also helps to give a much clearer tone & adds punch to cut through the mix, but in a slightly different way to the EQ.  The EQ & BBESSM work beautifully together.  

Trust me, once you've put an EQ in the FX loop, you'll think you have a new amp and you'll never play your Flextone again without it!  

Oh, and remember to get your amp off the floor!  Raise your amp off the ground by a foot or two and angle it a bit too - really helps in the mix with tone and volume.

Wisdom awarded and where were you when I was trying to get a live tone out of one of them!!!

thomasw88

I gigged a Yamaha g100 for most of the 90's.. It was a decent amp but it's not anywhere near fender twin like.. £500 will get you a very decent amp, h&k would be a good starting place for valve amps especially 2nd hand

BowynMadley

You should be able to pick up a fender hotrod deluxe for that money. Plenty of poke for small venues too and make an acceptable noise. 

wrinkleygit

Yamaha G100 was a great amp in its day but it's now had its day, I use a DG 60-112 ( no built in effects ) that cost me around £100 for the occasional gig I do now & it works well but I wouldn't want to spend much more than £100 for another one, with your budget a s/h Fender Blues or Hotrod deluxe would be an excellent choice, good luck in your quest.

xDottore

Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions, guys. Very helpful and much FFT. I might just get a Dumble… ;-)

rico

Jet city plus cab would be an intelligent shout. 

ICBM

thomasw88 said:

I gigged a Yamaha g100 for most of the 90's.. It was a decent amp but it's not anywhere near fender twin like..

Having directly A/B'd one with a Twin I would disagree - although admittedly the Yamaha was fitted with Jensen speakers. Very close in terms of basic tone and the 'size' of the sound.

wrinkleygit said:

Yamaha G100 was a great amp in its day but it's now had its day

I'm not sure why that would be so. A decent amp is a decent amp, it doesn't matter how old it is. The Yamaha is a solid, reliable, powerful and good-sounding amp (apart from the speakers).

To be perfectly honest most of the old Twins I've worked on in the last few years could be better described as having had their day, they tend to need far more work to make them properly reliable and quiet.

It puzzles me how ratty old valve amps are considered desirable and worth hundreds of pounds while equivalent solid-state amps which often don't have the same problems aren't...

thomasw88

ICBM said:

thomasw88 said:

I gigged a Yamaha g100 for most of the 90's.. It was a decent amp but it's not anywhere near fender twin like..

Having directly A/B'd one with a Twin I would disagree - although admittedly the Yamaha was fitted with Jensen speakers. Very close in terms of basic tone and the 'size' of the sound.

wrinkleygit said:

Yamaha G100 was a great amp in its day but it's now had its day

I'm not sure why that would be so. A decent amp is a decent amp, it doesn't matter how old it is. The Yamaha is a solid, reliable, powerful and good-sounding amp (apart from the speakers).

To be perfectly honest most of the old Twins I've worked on in the last few years could be better described as having had their day, they tend to need far more work to make them properly reliable and quiet.

It puzzles me how ratty old valve amps are considered desirable and worth hundreds of pounds while equivalent solid-state amps which often don't have the same problems aren't...

Rich tapestry of life me old mucker! As I said I used one quite happilly for most of the 90's across Scotland but I wouldn't class it the same sound wise to a twin.. although it was fecking heavy.

ICBM

thomasw88 said:

Rich tapestry of life me old mucker! As I said I used one quite happilly for most of the 90's across Scotland but I wouldn't class it the same sound wise to a twin.. although it was fecking heavy.

I think the speakers are the weak link. When I got my one they were both dead, so I fitted the Jensens since I had a spare pair and the Yamaha bolt spacing is slightly off for Celestions or Eminences. It was really remarkable how like a Fender it sounded - I sold it to someone who was looking for a Twin but didn't really want the cost and reliability issues of a real one. We A/B'd the Yamaha with an original SF Twin in the shop, and they bought the Yamaha… not a lot in it in terms of sound but a £400 price difference!

Admittedly I never gigged with it, but I can't see any reason it would have sounded very different - neither of them are meant for overdrive really…

wrinkleygit

re the Yamaha G100, I gigged the 112 version for a couple of years when they first came out & had no complaints about the sound or any reliability issues, however by saying it's had it's day my meaning was that I wouldn't want to spend any serious money on resurrecting an old one for gigging purposes, I think any funds would be best spent on something newer, mike

ICBM

wrinkleygit said:

re the Yamaha G100, I gigged the 112 version for a couple of years when they first came out & had no complaints about the sound or any reliability issues, however by saying it's had it's day my meaning was that I wouldn't want to spend any serious money on resurrecting an old one for gigging purposes, I think any funds would be best spent on something newer, mike

Not sure why when, if overhauled - and admittedly with the speakers possibly replaced - it will be as good for another 40 years. Which is at least as much as you can say for any valve amp, without the need to worry about valve failures.

For what it's worth my Peavey Special is the same sort of age and it cost me less than a set of power valves for my Mesa... and when I A/B'd it with a JBL-loaded SF Twin a couple of days ago, the Peavey could sound more or less identical and was as loud.

I'm selling the Mesa.

professorben

ICBM said:

wrinkleygit said:

re the Yamaha G100, I gigged the 112 version for a couple of years when they first came out & had no complaints about the sound or any reliability issues, however by saying it's had it's day my meaning was that I wouldn't want to spend any serious money on resurrecting an old one for gigging purposes, I think any funds would be best spent on something newer, mike

Not sure why when, if overhauled - and admittedly with the speakers possibly replaced - it will be as good for another 40 years. Which is at least as much as you can say for any valve amp, without the need to worry about valve failures.

For what it's worth my Peavey Special is the same sort of age and it cost me less than a set of power valves for my Mesa... and when I A/B'd it with a JBL-loaded SF Twin a couple of days ago, the Peavey could sound more or less identical and was as loud.

I'm selling the Mesa.

Woooah, you what now? 

ICBM

professorben said:

ICBM said:

I'm selling the Mesa.

Woooah, you what now? 

I don't need it, and I have no current or likely potential use for it. Someone who might use it more should have it.