All digital modelling awful? Just me?

Niallseroreilly

So ive used Line 6 Helix, Line 6 M13, Boss Gt100 amongst others...not any fractal stuff or Kemper though

My experience has been mixed, whilst the mod and delay sounds are nice the drives are not in the same league as my mesa and analog drives.

Anyone get any really convincing tones?

PolarityMan

I dont enjoy playing modelled amp tones live but for recording VSTs can get pretty damn close imho. In fact original pods are on far more recordings than you'd think.

dindude

Nope not just you it is all shit, certainly at the lower end of the spectrum, although never owned, i  have played through a few Fractals and they've never blown me away, but would like to spend more time with one.

To be fare, I have a GT001 which I use as a headphone amp and I can get some fun usable sounds out of it, but it's not on the same planet as my real rig.

siraxeman

I like digital stuff but like has been said....not live. That said if I played through a great party system with good monitoring I might be persuaded to change my mind. Also feels think and artificial to me through a guitar amp...when going into the power amp return. Real cooking valves and analogue solid state dirt sounds great though  

RandallFlagg

"Any get any really convincing tones?"

Yes, recorded in a mix, the Helix (and I'm sure other high end modellers) can sound very convincing, so much so that you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between it and a mic'd amp.

In the room, played through a FRFR speaker, when your sat in front of it, is is where they sound and feel different to what a tube amp will sound, but again, when you're amp is mic'd up at a gig, the sound through the PA and a modeller fed direct to PA will sound very close.

This guy gets a some great tones:

RandallFlagg

Niallseroreilly

RandallFlagg said:

"Any get any really convincing tones?"

Yes, recorded in a mix, the Helix (and I'm sure other high end modellers) can sound very convincing, so much so that you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between it and a mic'd amp.

In the room, played through a FRFR speaker, when your sat in front of it, is is where they sound and feel different to what a tube amp will sound, but again, when you're amp is mic'd up at a gig, the sound through the PA and a modeller fed direct to PA will sound very close.

This guy gets a some great tones:

Funny you mention the mix, was at a gig last night, guitarist playing through a helix direct to pa.

It sounded more like a recording rather than a roaring amp tone and subsequently for me wasnt enjoyable at all.

But curious to know how fractal or kemper live users get on.

octatonic

I've done several albums worth of music using the Axe FX + some real amps and no-one has been able to tell the difference between the two.
For live I still favour tube amps but that is more to do with being able to make changes on the fly to suit a particular acoustic environment.

Voxman

Some of you guys make me laugh and cry at the same time with all this 'down' on modelling.

In a live situation in a full band mix, with an enthusiastic drummer I'd honestly be amazed if you could tell the difference between a decent modelling amp/mfx and your average typical Fender, Marshall or Vox etc. Tube amp.  

Most of any difference is really in feel to the guitarist and nuances you might hear in a studio situation or in your room at home where you're atuned to your surroundings. But live at your typical crowded pub, club, party gig - no way.  Especially if you were going through a 4x12 cab and you were to see a Fender, Vox or Marshall dummy out front and your brain told you that you were looking at and therefore hearing a valve amp.

And thats even before we consider amp profiling from a Kemper thats effectively a sampling of the real thing.  

The differences folk think they can hear live are very often psychological.  However, the problem with this debate is opinions will always be divided and there will be those that say 'I'm different and I can hear the difference'.    The only way to prove it either way is to set up a blind test with dummy and real amp rigs all through the same cab and speakers, miked up to the PA, and a real audience, which ain't gonna happen.

My modelling amp is old tech, a 2003 AD120VTX Valvetronix, and it doesn't have the sophistication of a Kemper or AxFx or Helix.  I've done tons of gigs with it and even when performing in front of tube purists, they thought it was a Vox AC30 or Marshall.  Its even been mistaken for an Orange amp based on tone...which is intetesting as it doesn't have an Orange model! Lol

At one gig there was an AC30 on stage from another band. Some guys came up to me to say how they enjoyed the gig and it was nice to hear a proper Vox AC30 valve amp instead of ' that modelling rubbish'....and they were sound engineers from a local studio.  Should have seen their mouths drop when I told them I wasn't using the AC30 they saw and I was playing through that modelling rubbish. People hear what they want to hear!

Jonathanthomas83

Love that clip...nobody can tell me that doesn't sound great!

sgosden

Jonathanthomas83 said:

Love that clip...nobody can tell me that doesn't sound great!

Course they can, and will, the whole time they know it's not all analogue  

kjdowd

I've gigged both the Helix and the Fractal AX8 - both through a tube power amp (power stage of an egnater combo for the Helix and a fryette power station for the Fractal) and a guitar cab. The Helix sounded good and the AX8 sounded. Both just as good as a 'real' rig in terms of on stage mix and in the band mix out front.

I currently run two set ups, one pedalboard into a Brunetti Pleximan, and one Ax8 into fryette and a guitar cab. Both sound great and in a blind test you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I keep both because I like fiddling with pedals and I like tube amps, but if I really had the courage of my convictions and didn't like trying out gear so much I'd stick with the Ax8 exclusively. 

digitalscream

I used my Eleven Rack through a Marshall 20/20 at a bunch of gigs (including a decent-sized festival), and people were asking me what amp I used because they wanted one. I'd never have moved on, but for the non-tone-related problems of the Eleven Rack.

I even got compliments on my tone while using a Behringer V-Amp once.

Meanwhile I've seen a whole bunch of people using Fractal gear and they always sounded shit to my ears (our Clarky is probably the lone exception to this).

With a lot of them, it's down to how you use it more than what it's nominally capable of.

ICBM

I use to be able to tell - years ago there was a big blind test someone posted on the Gear Page, and I was able to reliably tell which were digital and which were analogue - but not any more. The quality really is a lot higher now.

Most of the more recent modellers have a selection of good and not-so-good sounds, but the good ones are really quite close to sounding like analogue now - easily good enough that you can't tell with any certainty.

Teetonetal

Niallseroreilly said:

So ive used Line 6 Helix, Line 6 M13, Boss Gt100 amongst others...not any fractal stuff or Kemper though

My experience has been mixed, whilst the mod and delay sounds are nice the drives are not in the same league as my mesa and analog drives.

Anyone get any really convincing tones?

yes. I think the helix sounds really nice. Certainly been getting quite a few great tone comments when I do the solo of the month stuff.

Not used mine as a modeller live... in an electric set. Just because I'm used to amp. But... I have heard some dire amp tones through a PA, when the amp itself sounds good, you are at the merry of the sound guy. Modellers remove lots of that problem.

Besides that, a mic'd up amp does not sound like a "live" amp. IMO modellers capture the mic'ed up sound very well now.

Fiftyshadesofjay

Try listening to an amp in the studio isolated through the monitors, then compare it to a decent modeller in the same situation. You won't be able to tell the difference.

Anything else is apples to aubergines. 

BintyTwanger77

To be honest, I've only ever tried a Helix and a Kemper through headphones and a tube amp/cab, and I didn't like what I heard that much, but would be interested to hear either through a speaker like a Yamaha DXR10 or another PA speaker (or at a push in the FX loop of something like a JC40 or JC120) because I'm guessing they would be clear & clean enough to let the amp/cab emulations shine through?

mike_l

Having seen Queensryche (Both Michael Wilton and Parker Lundgren) using Kempers I've changed my mind on them. Having seen them using amps, and (obviously) their recording made with amps, the tones are right on for them. I had previously thought modelling was a bit of a compromise, and sounded digital (might still do with some units, IDK), but seeing that did enlighten me.

Taking the time to get the tones spot on and being able to compare directly to a real amp does help with getting the right sounds.

digitalscream

mike_l said:

Having seen Queensryche (Both Michael Wilton and Parker Lundgren) using Kempers I've changed my mind on them. Having seen them using amps, and (obviously) their recording made with amps, the tones are right on for them. I had previously thought modelling was a bit of a compromise, and sounded digital (might still do with some units, IDK), but seeing that did enlighten me.

Taking the time to get the tones spot on and being able to compare directly to a real amp does help with getting the right sounds.

Wilton's obviously gone up in the world; when they first started gigging with the new lineup, he was using a Zoom G5. Times were hard, I guess

Danny1969

My modelling amp is old tech, a 2003 AD120VTX Valvetronix, and it doesn't have the sophistication of a Kemper or AxFx or Helix.  I've done tons of gigs with it and even when performing in front of tube purists, they thought it was a Vox AC30 or Marshall.  Its even been mistaken for an Orange amp based on tone...which is intetesting as it doesn't have an Orange model! Lol

Agreed they are great sounding amps but feck me, inside my was some of the worse soldering I've ever seen on a mass produced product. The Korg made bit at the top was fine but the PCB with the valves on it and the SS output stage was terrible, I ended up modding mine and put my own power stage in there

fretmeister

I love my Helix. It sounds fantastic.