Lazy J20 hype ...

4114Effects

OK so I feel I've got to ask this question as I've been wondering it for a while - what is the deal with the Lazy J20 - is it really as good as people say - or is it just marketing?

As far as I can tell, it's a pretty standard Tweed Delxue 5e3 - one of the easiest amp circuits to build. (I built it as my first amp it looked so simple.) Yes the 5e3 is a lovely circuit - my favourite in fact, but what is it about this particular version that makes it worth well in excess of two grand? Maybe the builder tweaks the circuit slightly - couple of cap changes etc. but I just don't get it. Yep, they look pretty well built, but no more than some of the good neat home-build pics I've seen around. 

I also don't understand how inelegant the mods are ... want reverb or trem? No problem, we'll just shove an ugly metal box in the back of the amp where the controls are really hard to reach and charge you a good whack more. For the kind of money people are paying I'd expect a bespoke reverb model - J20R for example, with a properly screen printed wider top control panel with the controls on and labelled.

Anyway, maybe it's just professional jealousy 'cos he's making the big bucks and I ain't. Just wondered if anyone felt the same?

hotpickups

Well I wouldn't say it's clever marketing because Lazy J don't do any themselves as far as I know. Purely it's user experiences and their sharing/word of mouth. All I can say is I used to get through amps regularly but haven't looked elsewhere since i.e  3 years now. Yes I've bought other amps to try out as a two amp set up alongside the J20 but I will find it very hard to ever think of parting from my J20. The 2 amps I did buy were moved on pretty soon as I just couldn't connect with them as easy as I did with the J20. 

So, no real magic I guess. Just good quality parts plus some well thought out tweaks, bespoke tranny and of course that really expensive Celestion Blue in it will push the price up alongside the man hours building it. Together with very respected guitarists being seen using them helps for some people I don't think there is much more you could do to that circuit / amp as Jesse has covered most I feel. Maybe Jesse was in the right place at the right time ?

richardhomer

I did a parody thread along similar lines a while back.

I've never played one - so I'm in no position to comment, really. I doubt one would be for me, as I don't really like the voicing of tweed-style amps.

What amazes me is - given their relative rarity - how many get sold on. The same seems to be true of Tone Kings.

I'm much more into guitars than amps - I can easily get excited about a great guitar - far less so with amps. I think the other thing is that there are plenty of freely available, production line amps which are more than adequate for most players - at 'real world' money. One of the nicest sounding amps I've played through recently was a Princeton Reverb Reissue - hard to imagine needing to spend more, if Blackface cleans are your thing.

4114Effects

Yeah if it sounds good and you're happy with the price then it's all good I guess. 

Just annoys me when you can see that it's quite obviously kit parts he's buying and assembling. The metal chassis come pre screen-printed and drilled for £39 in the UK and I'm almost certain he doesn't make the cabs himself. Maybe he lacquers them though.

Modulus do a great tweed cab for £249 which looks identical. Factor in transformers (£120ish), parts (£200 inc valves if I'm being generous) and a celestion blue (£180) and you're looking at a decent profit margin.

Maybe I'll start making one but with EL34 valves. All I need is someone famous to play it. Any takers?  

benmurray85

4114Effects said:

Maybe I'll start making one but with EL34 valves. All I need is someone famous to play it. Any takers?  

I'm the most famous guitarist in my house. Does that count?

IvisonGuitars

They do get overhyped IMO....as the are 5E3 based BUT the are a lot more usable in the 'real world' than a standard 14w 5E3. Beefier transformers, more output, more efficient speaker, EQ'd to take out the 'flub' bottom end, reverb/trem as options, the VAC to dial down the output, more reliable or less likely to blow up/catch fire - and I have tried both side by side.

Yes, they are essentially a 5E3 but for the modern gigging musician...IMO of course.

4114Effects

miserneil said:

They do get overhyped IMO....as the are 5E3 based BUT the are a lot more usable in the 'real world' than a standard 14w 5E3. Beefier transformers, more output, more efficient speaker, EQ'd to take out the 'flub' bottom end, reverb/trem as options, the VAC to dial down the output, more reliable or less likely to blow up/catch fire - and I have tried both side by side.

Yes, they are essentially a 5E3 but for the modern gigging musician...IMO of course.

Yeah - I realise they have 6L6 and larger transformers. This is a mod people have been doing for a good many years now though. Maybe Jesse was the first to market them properly?

dindude

The modulus cab is ply, LJ's are pine I believe. There could be loads of subtle differences and tweaks compared to a kit build 5e3, the devil's in the detail with boutiquery geekery!

I've never played one btw, never really had the desire, but I don't agree with Richard, I stepped into a Carr some 4 years ago now and could never go back to an "adequate" amp.

hotpickups

Other builders here we know of charge around £1300 for their similar builds and they say they are just making a living out of it. I bought mine for about £1900 I think which was without reverb then. However it did have the VAC which is more than welcome. I certainly wouldn't have been happy with a vintage correct 14watt tweed deluxe I know that. So maybe a bit of hype I guess for a very niche market. But as Neil has mentioned a much needed update to the amp had been welcomed with open arms. I doubt anyone else would score better than Jesse has done now. He think he's closed that market up now. He certainly hasn't tried to bring any other type amp out since except for a version of tweedness?

hotpickups

dindude said:

The modulus cab is ply, LJ's are pine I believe. There could be loads of subtle differences and tweaks compared to a kit build 5e3, the devil's in the detail with boutiquery geekery!

I've never played one btw, never really had the desire, but I don't agree with Richard, I stepped into a Carr some 4 years ago now and could never go back to an "adequate" amp.

Funny it was a Carr that was one of the amps I couldn't connect with. The Tone King was the other.  Horses for courses ain't it? Just shows we are all different

JohnPerry

I was similarly sceptical the day I set off to try a J20 alongside a top-quality 5e3 made by a small firm near Oxford called Amgard. 

I A-Bd them for an hour or so but it was immediately obvious the J20 had to come home with me. It was warmer, grittier and just more inspiring. And the Amgard was a great amp too, with the lowest noise floor I have ever come across. 

The reason so many get sold on is because unlike most amps they keep their value. People get the itch for something else and know they can bank £2k or so for their Lazy J.

In a moment of madness last year I flirted with doing the same, and every time I turn it on now I am grateful I came to my senses

RaymondLin

I am never selling mine, whatever he does, I think it is worth the extra over a standard 5e3.  It's a bit like is a Dumble worth £100k?  It makes the Lazy J looks cheap.

I let my brother in law play mine the other week, he is not into gear, doesn't visit forums and have no clue what a Lazy J is but his face changed when he started playing it.  I just told him some guy in Guildford makes it.

It's like a lot of things in life, rules of diminishing returns, you can probably get close to it for half the money but to get that last 5% it just cost more, not proportional and it's up to you whether you want to make that step.

4114Effects

Yep. So I'm getting that they're great amps, sound amazing etc. Obviously a lot of very happy owners out there. 

I just think that for the money they could come up with something better than awkwardly placed reverb and trem units that look like afterthoughts. 

RiftAmps

@4114Effects If you ever have 5 minutes spare for a chat on the phone I'll quite happily tell you how little Jesse makes on the stock J20, and why

Also, those screen printed and chromed cold-rolled steel chassis are horrendously expensive to have custom made. I should know, a run of 25 has just cost me a sniff over £3000 landed from the USA. 

RaymondLin

I think a little LED on the foot switch would help and perhaps 2 more knobs...

But I don't use the Tremolo on it.  The spring reverb however is a real one so not something i can replace with pedals.  There is also something about putting a LP straight into it without pedals, add a touch of reverb and just go for it.  It's glorious.

4114Effects

RiftAmps said:

@4114Effects If you ever have 5 minutes spare for a chat on the phone I'll quite happily tell you how little Jesse makes on the stock J20, and why

Also, those screen printed and chromed cold-rolled steel chassis are horrendously expensive to have custom made. I should know, a run of 25 has just cost me a sniff over £3000 landed from the USA. 

Are there no UK firms who could produce something similar? £120 a chassis seems like a silly amount of money. 

Quite happy to be proved wrong about his profits at some point. I'll drop you a PM. :-)

4114Effects

Also why would he have them custom made when you can buy an identical part for under £40 from Modulus? 

IvisonGuitars

@4114Effects The cabs are made by  Mojotone in the US and shipped over. Taking into account this, the chassis, the parts (which I believe many of come from the US) & the Celestion Blue, I can quite imagine there is a very small margin @RiftAmps ;

Sassafras

If it's any consolation, I'm with you on the reverb and trem pig's breakfast. Looks very shoddy and impractical.
They do sound really good though.

RiftAmps

He doesn't have them custom made, it's just a stock 5E3 chassis from AllParts/Mojo.

However, if he wanted to incorporate either the tremolo, reverb, or both into the chassis then he would need to have them custom made. I'll explain on the phone

4114Effects

miserneil said:

@4114Effects The cabs are made by  Mojotone in the US and shipped over. Taking into account this, the chassis, the parts (which I believe many of come from the US) & the Celestion Blue, I can quite imagine there is a very small margin @RiftAmps ;

There are plenty of UK cab builders though. Why not just get them made over here? Or better still, make them himself? Seems unnecessary having them made in the USA. Actually, maybe I'll contact him. I could make a good few of those cabs a week if I set up the jigs and templates. :-)