Lazy J20 hype ...

4114Effects

Actually maybe I'll put my money where my mouth is. When I'm a little more time and cash rich I'll make my version of what I think is going on inside a J20. Pine cab, tweed covered, 6L6, might even stretch to heyboer transformers. Probably have to save up for an Alnico Blue though!

I'll do a build diary with associated costs, then I'll let people try it out and see if I've got anywhere near. Just for my own curiosity. If the J20 is miles superior then I'll concede that there really is some builders magic in there. :-)

Modulus_Amps

@RiftAmps said:

@4114Effects If you ever have 5 minutes spare for a chat on the phone I'll quite happily tell you how little Jesse makes on the stock J20, and why

Also, those screen printed and chromed cold-rolled steel chassis are horrendously expensive to have custom made. I should know, a run of 25 has just cost me a sniff over £3000 landed from the USA. 

Chris, next time give me a call, I can get them made in the UK at a very reasonable cost for that qty, there are also other options that can be explored to make the chassis more flexible.

I always assumed Jesse used mojo parts, you don't have allot of options for parts unless you go custom made to order, the chassis I sell is made for a slightly larger power transformer to run the 6L6 valves a bit better.

The mojo cabs are nice, we will probably look at making them to that spec after April, but the ply cabinet is still really nice.

@4114Effects I agree about the add ons, but VOX did it with the Top Boost mod too, I think if LJ had real productions plans then the chassis would need made to suit a model, which is expensive for a small business

RaymondLin

4114Effects said:

Actually maybe I'll put my money where my mouth is. When I'm a little more time and cash rich I'll make my version of what I think is going on inside a J20. Pine cab, tweed covered, 6L6, might even stretch to heyboer transformers. Probably have to save up for an Alnico Blue though!

I'll do a build diary with associated costs, then I'll let people try it out and see if I've got anywhere near. Just for my own curiosity. If the J20 is miles superior then I'll concede that there really is some builders magic in there. :-)

I'd like to see this build, plenty of pics when you do!

RiftAmps

@Modulus_Amps thanks Michael. Most of that money was design/setup fees, shipping, import duty and VAT, plus being right royally shafted by the weak £ the day I paid. I'll probably only sell 5 or so of these amps a year so won't be reordering for a while yet

Modulus_Amps

@RiftAmps said:

@Modulus_Amps thanks Michael. Most of that money was design/setup fees, shipping, import duty and VAT, plus being right royally shafted by the weak £ the day I paid. I'll probably only sell 5 or so of these amps a year so won't be reordering for a while yet

Cool, I have contact details of a firm in Galsgow I will send you later

mgaw

as far as expensive amps go i have recently bought a Columbia Reverb by Louis Electric  6l6 blackface which was twice the price of a fender reissue @richardhomer it is easily so much better sounding that in my opinion was a very good buy and worth every penny.

But as others point out its the law of diminishing returns, whether others think they are worth the extra is upto them really...problem i found is once i heard the extra quality of the "top" flight offerings i was fucked:)

Wazmeister

I was fortunate to spend a few hours one morning with Jesse, as he serviced my LJ. He is a great guy, and the LJ is modelled (as Im sure many of you know) on an old Tweed Deluxe he played - natirally with a few tweaks.

Now, imho, most builders who make a tweed concentrate on the 'tweed' sound;, which makes sense. But, there IS something going on with the LJ and the 'clean' sounds. The LJ always strikes me as being fuller, more mids and bottom end - and a lot sweeter than most tweeds. 

I dont know what he has done, but Ive never played a tweed close to the LJ, and not only 5% or so. Top end amps, and again Im generalising, sound better for a (costly) reason.

Ive heard lots of builders (and not necessarily those guys who have added to this thread) saying the LJ is 'just a tweed circuit'. Its gotta be much more... if the LJ is just a tweed, make some and ride the current wave of hype. 

Fair play Dan; make and journal one. Your stuff looks brilliant.

Mate, I always think in life success (however you define it) comes when you find your OWN voice. Do that too mate, as your builds always look creative and professional.

Now, Ive just sold my LJ. Why ? 

Well, it generated £2000 pretty quick. I prefer great cleans with a hint of break-up, and the Redplate stepped in and offered this to me in buckets.

IvisonGuitars

@4114Effects Dan, as you allude to in your first post, it sounds like you have a bee in your bonnet about this and, wether you want it to sound like it or not, I reckon there is a bit of 'professional jealousy' creeping in ;-)

Jesse had a big client base of pro players from his amp fixing/modding at Chandlers so, when he hit on the idea of the J20, it was pretty easy to get it into the hands of pros and the buzz created from that. He used to make his own cabs by the way but it became too time consuming. He told me reason he uses Mojotone is that they are the closest to the originals he could find but would be very open to finding a builder who can make them in solid pine in the UK.

You know what you should do? Stop worrying about Lazy J, that market is sewn up, regardless of if you build one and it comes out as good (which I'm sure it would) or better. You should be concentrating on getting your Flux Capacitor pedal onto the market properly, every one who has seen that both amateur and pro players have all said how incredible it is.

Thats YOUR Lazy J20....bang them out and revel in the glory! :-)

dindude

I kinda agree with this last comment. Not just you, but a lot of the smaller builders in the UK seem to vent on how hard it is to make a living, especially when people are buying the latest hype thing instead of theirs etc. It's actually put me off going near a few of the other small companies tbh, attitude of a company, especially a one-man-band is important. Again not you Dan, 99% of the time you are positive and do your own thing.
You are clearly buzzing with loads of ideas and your execution is always first class. I'd love to see a "stock" range of pedals with your great astetics, and I also associate you with micro amps, again a small range of these would be ace.

hotpickups

@4114Effects I didn't know you built stuff/pedals. Shouldve known by your name I guess doh:( Do you have a website or demos of your builds? Maybe we can make you the next hype

Sorry i I hope this isn't seen as a derailment of your thread

Dominic

Really interesting thread ........I don't think there is an issue of "jealousy "as much as intrigue from somebody who has a well founded intellectual interest and understanding of electro mechanics but an element of commercial naiveity.
 I think there are some elements of hype and snake oil as a garnish to what is a first rate product. The credibility and endorsement of the original Chandlers connection was what probably kicked this off.
I am sure that if any skilled amp -builder were to de-construct a J20 that they would be able to clone it piece for piece - not only is the basis a well-published circuit but it isn't Rocket science.( sorry amp-builders ) I also think this would be more expensive than the layman imagines and that above all a commercial profit margin has to be added after allowance for the amortisation of all the ancilliary expenses of running a small business ;rent,rates,communications,insurance,staff,accountants ,travel ,storage and taxes ( YES -don't forget  £350 of your Lazy J is pure VAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! )  Ultimately there has to be a profit incentive for the man to be bothered so suddenly it all looks a bit more understandable.
 What I find far less understandable is the justification for a Fender "MASTER -BUILT " Tele or Strat at £4200 ! This Brand -intensification was a marketing brainwave and a marketing departments perfect coup ....pure marketing genius ;Even the fact that the otherwise nameless guitar builder is presented as a person by name as if he/she is modern-day Stradivarius and an old Mexican lady who turns the winding machine on and off is elevated to cult status -pure marketing genius that a firm of outsourced brand development consultants dreamed-up .Who says huge fees paid to such spin -doctors isn't worth every penny !
There is essentially the same core product as the standard line with a few tweaks and a fancy distressed paint job for almost £3500 more. A large manufacturing and marketing machine behind it who also have their overheads but these carry a tiny unit liability per guitar spread across such a large enterprise.
- In this case you really can simply buy a great quality painted body from the likes of Mark Jenny ,a top neck from Warmoth and Lollar/ Fralin/BKP /Klein and pay a great luthier to put it together,dress and tweak it and you have the identical if not better product for £1000 ! .............This really is a case of being able to do the same job at a quarter of the cost yet people flock to buy their Masterbuilt Fenders and there really is no magic dust here .
 I don't have an issue with the TREM/REVERB in The Lazy J .......that's a very understandable modular system that works as a bolt-on option ....why does it need to be any prettier -it will only inflate the cost .
 Ultimately ,if a little cottage industry with a home-built vibe like Lazy J doesn't sit comfortably then you could choose from other top "boutique " brands ;choose from Tone King,Friedman,Two Rock ,Morgan etc because these "boutiques" are all made side by side in the same California Factory by the same people -even the cabinets and tolex work ............purely badge engineering yet nobody is questioning their cost-justification yet I would bet that unit for unit their profit margin is far higher than Lazy J.
  Pay yer money......take yer choice .

MrT

Isnt this the same argument about anything that's hand assembled without being mass produced? It seems really expensive until you break down the numbers for build time, product development, marketing (even if you're not placing ads you've got to cover the time you spend promoting or demoing your product) not to mention downtime to make it feasible to make a living out of it. 

Even the rough estimates for parts above get to £760 (if my maths is behaving itself). How many hours would it take to build it? How much do you need to make an hour to make it a sustainable business?

ThePrettyDamned

I think a large part of his success came from years of servicing pro amps - so he already had a client base. 

I vaguely remember a band, the arctic monkeys maybe, first mentioning these lazy j20 amps and everyone wanted to know what they were and how to get them. Marketing done right. 

I've never heard one in the flesh, but Jesse seems open about what it is - a tweaked tweed deluxe with a bit more power, a bit less flub and a good speaker. They sell semi regularly second hand partly because people want to follow trends (milkman amps, anyone?) and partly because it won't make them sound magically 100x better. It may not be because the quality isn't there (which it is). And the kind of people who regularly buy and sell won't say they think it's boring sounding or whatever (if they did think that) because it may affect resale value.

And they might not be boring sounding now - but as nice as blackface deluxe reverb type amps are good, when they're just about all you see and hear at gigs with the usual pedals going through (timmy, kot, ocd etc) everyone sounds the same - and it is boring. A lot of this kit isn't rare anymore, and the hype that builds means everyone wants them - and gets them! Jesse probably knows this, and is cashing in while he can. Can't blame the chap. 

koss59

@4114Effects I'm interested in this kind of amp. If you decided to build one then I'd be happy to come and test it and do a video for you. Don't think I live too far from you.

4114Effects

Hey, apologies if the post sounded bitter at all. Wasn't my intention. Guess I'm just a bit fed up after a week of being laid up on the couch! 

I think i was just trying to tap into what made them so desirable. I mean no offence to Jesse, who obviously is a a nice bloke making a living. All credit to him for finding a niche in the market. 

Perhaps I'm looking at it as a builder rather than a player. As @gassage says it's more than a tweed deluxe as it has more headroom and less flub. To a player that's great building, to me that's just a bigger OT, 6L6 valves, a different rectifier and a couple of cap changes. Ceriatone have been offering that as a kit for years. (5x3 Big Deluxe).

Anyway, if people are buying them and happy then it's all good. Not my money they're spending lol :-)

i stilll stand by the reverb and trem unit design comments, I can see them becoming very annoying if mid-set adjustments are needed. But each to their own. 

Ive decided not to copy one, that's just petty. I will probably build my take on one though. I use a 5e3 with SS rectifier and EL34 valves plus a few other tweaks as my main amp, so I might build another for people to try :-)

Gassage

I love both the J20 and J40.

The J20 has a depth and richness and grit rarely seen in other amps. It really does straddle Fender/Plexi tones wonderfully. Its only weak point is as a pure clean pedal platform.

The J40 is much better for pure cleans (hence my choice) and is, without question, the most powerful 40watts I've ever heard.

But here's the thing; in sport, there's a saying that you can't do one thing 100% better than the opposition, so you do 100 things 1% better.

This is what Jesse does; he tweaks every element to the max, is ruthless as to supply chain (the cabs are still imported from the US) and he basically improves loads of things margainally to get the required result.

I find the reverb and trem modules quite good actually- I hardly use either so no big deal to me.

But he's really set out to make those marginal gains throughout the amp platform and it works, so good for him.

Sassafras

As @dindude says, you should stick to building your very original and beautiful mini amps. They look fantastic and you seem to manage to sell them very quickly. If I was amp buying at the moment, you'd be my first port of call.
Play to your strengths and don't bother about what other people are making.
Make enough of your own stuff and it will soon generate it's own hype and popularity.

jellyroll

I played one in Chandlers a couple of years ago. Didn't get the love at all.

BintyTwanger77

I played one in Chandlers some months ago, and was initially blown away, but really I can get just as great a tone with a 65 Deluxe Reverb and a good compressor (well to my ears anyway).

Modulus_Amps

I have a Weinbrock Gringo on the bench here that is pretty much a tweed deluxe with 5881 fitted, not listened to it yet, but matched with a Celestion blue and I bet it is close. I think you can get them at a decent price second hand when they come up

Just had this in from a customer comparing my kit to his LazyJ20

"Also, AB'd it with the lazy J20. No difference in tone once the valves and speaker swopped out.
Really chuffed with it. Will be ordering another for a mate soon."