Return Policy try-outs

Dave_Mc

LOL, you'd think so but when i asked to try a J35 the last time i was in a real shop (I was loaded up with lembas bread Frodo-style, just in case ) i was told, "You won't like that, try this J45 instead."

(Which was really nice, but that's not the point- the J35 might have been as well and was several hundred quid cheaper!)

impmann

Dave_Mc said:

LOL, you'd think so but when i asked to try a J35 the last time i was in a real shop (I was loaded up with lembas bread Frodo-style, just in case ) i was told, "You won't like that, try this J45 instead."

(Which was really nice, but that's not the point- the J35 might have been as well and was several hundred quid cheaper!)

Hmmm, I would have said "what the heck do you know about my playing style and what I want from it? Can I try the J35 please?" - I've had stuff like this a lot in PMT, which is why I've decided to avoid them in the future.

Sassafras

I miss the sixties when all you had to choose from was a fuzz box or a treble booster. If you were particularly progressive and didn't mind experimental music you could have both.
Damn technological advances!

crunchman

professorben said:

Now don't dismiss this this as crazy talk, but one day I foresee a time, a time when guitarists will abandon their digital domains, and venture out into the sunlight, and lo they won't shrivel up in the sun, and they can visit a shop ( mystical place where gear is stored for photographing for websites) and those very guitarist would be able to try said gear and decide if they liked it before purchasing.

some call me crazy..........

The problem is that we've killed off the shops by buying online.

kjdowd

FelineGuitars said:

I think the DSRs are covering too wide a range of issues .

They may have been put in place to cover buying a pair of shoes - so if they didn't fit you wouldn't be stuck or a jacket that if you realise it didn't look good on you or that the quality was not whet you expected - the sort of things that you would have known right away trying something in a shop in the old fashioned way of shopping.

They weren't designed for trying something in depth for a longer period and being able to return it once you'd hd the experience.
I think it's rather unfair on the retailer, and in turn unfair on the next customer if that item is returned into for sale stock

The trouble is that when I buy something I do want it to be brand new and box-fresh.

I like the whole unpacking something new experience to a degree, so I would always feel disappointed to get something that is to all intents and purposes second hand.

Definitely. Last few pedals I've bought new have clearly been returned by others. Haven't made a fuss as the pedals are fine and I suppose it's the price you pay to have the protection of DSR but it does suggest that the practice of try and return is fairly widespread. 

professorben

crunchman said:

professorben said:

Now don't dismiss this this as crazy talk, but one day I foresee a time, a time when guitarists will abandon their digital domains, and venture out into the sunlight, and lo they won't shrivel up in the sun, and they can visit a shop ( mystical place where gear is stored for photographing for websites) and those very guitarist would be able to try said gear and decide if they liked it before purchasing.

some call me crazy..........

The problem is that we've killed off the shops by buying online.

Yeah, a lot of shops didn't help their cause much tho. 

Jonathanthomas83

professorben said:

crunchman said:

professorben said:

Now don't dismiss this this as crazy talk, but one day I foresee a time, a time when guitarists will abandon their digital domains, and venture out into the sunlight, and lo they won't shrivel up in the sun, and they can visit a shop ( mystical place where gear is stored for photographing for websites) and those very guitarist would be able to try said gear and decide if they liked it before purchasing.

some call me crazy..........

The problem is that we've killed off the shops by buying online.

Yeah, a lot of shops didn't help their cause much tho. 

100% agree with this, some shops still don't help themselves and (I don't feel bad for saying this) it's a pleasure to see one of them in particular (local to me) struggling and really turning into a pig sty of a place because of it. Arrogant and unhelpful, rip off merchants. 

Nice to see a couple in Cardiff getting a kick up the arse too.

StormshadowGuitars

FelineGuitars said:

I think the DSRs are covering too wide a range of issues .

They may have been put in place to cover buying a pair of shoes - so if they didn't fit you wouldn't be stuck or a jacket that if you realise it didn't look good on you or that the quality was not whet you expected - the sort of things that you would have known right away trying something in a shop in the old fashioned way of shopping.

They weren't designed for trying something in depth for a longer period and being able to return it once you'd hd the experience.
I think it's rather unfair on the retailer, and in turn unfair on the next customer if that item is returned into for sale stock

The trouble is that when I buy something I do want it to be brand new and box-fresh.

I like the whole unpacking something new experience to a degree, so I would always feel disappointed to get something that is to all intents and purposes second hand.

Agree 100% Jonathan!!

ecc83

I agree that the regulations are there to put online trading somewhat on a par with brick & mortar shops which have vastly bigger overheads per volume of sales, should be respected as such and the intention to simply "play the field" is reprehensible.

There is however the question of what is "second hand" and does it matter? For instance, a small proportion of new products will fail final spec check and be pulled off the line and re- worked. They will then go back through the loop and be sold as "new" even though, technically they have been "repaired". I don't think anyone would really be upset by that scenario?

But consider 100 units in a warehouse that MIGHT have a fault? Would a company just leave them and sell them on and fix the ones that came back? No, I don't think so, they would open every box and check every device, fixing the odd one that failed. Each box would then be carefully re sealed and sold as new since the company would still stand by any warranties.

Going further. If a pedal comes back under the regs it should be examined, tested and if perfect, re sealed and sold as new with as new guarantees. Who is losing in that case? If it is at all dinged or scratched but works to spec it can be sold as B stock. Again, most firms that offer B stock also give a full warranty.

Dave.

professorben

ecc83 said:

I agree that the regulations are there to put online trading somewhat on a par with brick & mortar shops which have vastly bigger overheads per volume of sales, should be respected as such and the intention to simply "play the field" is reprehensible.

There is however the question of what is "second hand" and does it matter? For instance, a small proportion of new products will fail final spec check and be pulled off the line and re- worked. They will then go back through the loop and be sold as "new" even though, technically they have been "repaired". I don't think anyone would really be upset by that scenario?

But consider 100 units in a warehouse that MIGHT have a fault? Would a company just leave them and sell them on and fix the ones that came back? No, I don't think so, they would open every box and check every device, fixing the odd one that failed. Each box would then be carefully re sealed and sold as new since the company would still stand by any warranties.

Going further. If a pedal comes back under the regs it should be examined, tested and if perfect, re sealed and sold as new with as new guarantees. Who is losing in that case? If it is at all dinged or scratched but works to spec it can be sold as B stock. Again, most firms that offer B stock also give a full warranty.

Dave.

But it's when stores, don't check, don't re package correctly, just stick it back on the self and sell it as new......

no matter the best intention of any process, system or regulation, someone somewhere can't be arsed to do it properly.

Dave_Mc

^ Yep, agreed. I like stuff to be new, too. But it's up to the shop to check that stuff comes back in as-new condition- and if not, claw the money back from the chancer who sent the thing back in bad condition, not send it out to some new unsuspecting and innocent customer.

The other thing I'd say is, some shops pack stuff pretty poorly, too. I've had shoes sent to me, by a couple of well-known national retailers, in no more than a glorified Tesco bag. Needless to say, the boxes the shoes came in were beaten to crap from being through the post by the time I received them.

So it goes both ways.

impmann said:

Dave_Mc said:

LOL, you'd think so but when i asked to try a J35 the last time i was in a real shop (I was loaded up with lembas bread Frodo-style, just in case ) i was told, "You won't like that, try this J45 instead."

(Which was really nice, but that's not the point- the J35 might have been as well and was several hundred quid cheaper!)

Hmmm, I would have said "what the heck do you know about my playing style and what I want from it? Can I try the J35 please?" - I've had stuff like this a lot in PMT, which is why I've decided to avoid them in the future.

Yeah. I mean, I kinda didn't want it to get awkward (as I still wanted to try a few guitars). Plus they're the only Gibson dealer here in NI, so if I piss them off I can't try them anywhere else.

I was also pretty self-conscious as I'm totally an electric player and not terribly confident on acoustic.

professorben said:

crunchman said:

professorben said:

Now don't dismiss this this as crazy talk, but one day I foresee a time, a time when guitarists will abandon their digital domains, and venture out into the sunlight, and lo they won't shrivel up in the sun, and they can visit a shop ( mystical place where gear is stored for photographing for websites) and those very guitarist would be able to try said gear and decide if they liked it before purchasing.

some call me crazy..........

The problem is that we've killed off the shops by buying online.

Yeah, a lot of shops didn't help their cause much tho. 

Yeah pretty much. .

Wazmeister

Limited stock maybe, but Amazon is your friend for returns...

DanR

I think it's quite ironic that people bitch about people abusing eBay's buyer protection but then abuse shops DSR regulations to try a pedal for a month.

Sporky

The original intention of the DSR was to afford consumers the same opportunity to inspect goods as they would have in a shop.

So trying a pair of shoes on is absolutely fine, going for a run in them isn't. Trying a pedal with your stuff is fine, gigging with it isn't.

FelineGuitars

Sporky said:

The riginal intention of the DSR was to afford consumers the same opportunity to inspect goods as they would have in a shop.

So trying a pair of shoes on is absolutely fine, going for a run in them isn't. Trying a pedal with your stuff is fine, gigging with it isn't.

I think @Sporky has given the best answer to this yet.

Sporky

Also, if we ignore the people who abuse the system (on account of I'm reasonably sure they're a tiny minority), I think it's probably been good for retailers because it's made people more confident about buying online.

DLM

I'm far too stupid to use pedals, and the legal situation is a bit different where I live (the 24/7 Hofftoberfest), but the stores here consciously advertise free 30-odd-day return policies. Ordering up a bunch of stuff and sending back what one doesn't want for a full refund (including return shipping) is not a problem, it's a business-driving service that shops use to extend their reach.

Dave_Mc

^ Yeah if they specifically and deliberately court it and advertise it as a reason to buy from them, I don't see how they can complain (as long as people aren't taking the piss, of course, like that Facebook chap with Thomann).

Wazmeister said:

Limited stock maybe, but Amazon is your friend for returns...

I've never bought a guitar on Amazon, but I think I've noticed recently that they don't seem to send guitars to NI. I've noticed that before with some other larger items... I had to buy a hi-fi locally because the box it came in apparently was slightly over their size threshold for sending here. Ironically, some bigger hi-fis came in a smaller box and they'd have sent them fine (I did buy another, actually noticeably bigger, hi-fi from them that they did send).

Sporky said:

The original intention of the DSR was to afford consumers the same opportunity to inspect goods as they would have in a shop.

So trying a pair of shoes on is absolutely fine, going for a run in them isn't. Trying a pedal with your stuff is fine, gigging with it isn't.

Agreed 100%.

FelineGuitars said:

Sporky said:

The riginal intention of the DSR was to afford consumers the same opportunity to inspect goods as they would have in a shop.

So trying a pair of shoes on is absolutely fine, going for a run in them isn't. Trying a pedal with your stuff is fine, gigging with it isn't.

I think @Sporky has given the best answer to this yet.

Agreed, though I'm slightly miffed that I think I more or less said the same, perhaps in not so many words nor so eloquently or succinctly, already. (Admittedly, I didn't provide the (very good) examples.)

Sporky said:

Also, if we ignore the people who abuse the system (on account of I'm reasonably sure they're a tiny minority), I think it's probably been good for retailers because it's made people more confident about buying online.

Also agreed 100%.

The other thing is, I'm slightly skeptical of the claims that DSRs (or CCRs) are hurting smaller shops- bigger shops were free to implement their own more generous return policies before they existed, and they still often go above and beyond the law as it currently stands (e.g. Thomann with its 3-year warranty and 30 day return period is more generous than the law as it currently stands). If the DSRs/CCRs didn't exist, shops would likely still exist which offered similar return policies, and a lot of customers would just buy from them- "If you won't give me a reasonable return policy, I'll buy from a retailer which will!"

It's the fact that some shops are bigger and have more purchasing power (and can also absorb losses better from returned gear which isn't pristine) which is hurting the smaller shops, not having very necessary and helpful (in my opinion) regulations which protect the consumer.