55 Junior on EBay

scalino65

I've been looking at this again and have spoken to the seller too. The one thing I cannot get comfortable with is the shape of the neck heel. I cant find pics of any other jnr that has such a deep "U" shape, most are "C" shaped.
The proximity of bridge post to p90 seems fine for that age.
Has anyone got any pics of a junior with that shape of neck heel? Or should I just admit what appears to be staring me in the face?:)

peteri

What are the pot codes? Worth asking - I agree the scratch plate looks very new, you don't see many without some shrinkage.

There's also an obvious question - £2500? 

ICBM

peteri said:

What are the pot codes? Worth asking

Even if they're '55 pots it doesn't prove the guitar is genuine though - and it could still be even with replaced pots. It's a help for dating when you're pretty sure the guitar is genuine, but you can't rely on it otherwise.

peteri said:

There's also an obvious question - £2500? 

That's probably about right for a genuine one with some changed parts and a refinish, and no serial number or 'Les Paul TV Model' decal. (Given that I would assume that if genuine, it probably started as a Junior rather than a TV.) An all-original sunburst Junior doesn't sell for more than about £4K even now.

Obviously way too high if it's not...

scalino65

Thanks for your thoughts chaps. Bloke reckons he has all the original bits in the case apart from the tail piece.He reckons it was TV rather than S/B as it originally had black knobs not see-through ones(??) He also says he bought it from Vintage and Rare in Bath in 2003 who gave him their certificate thingy. Cant remember what their certificates say but I'd say any 3rd party buyer wont have come back against V&R on it!

goat

Total tangent, its not for sale, but check out this smoking 59 Special over on LPF http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?203781-1959-LP-Special-TV-Yellow

IvisonGuitars

scalino65 said:

Thanks for your thoughts chaps. Bloke reckons he has all the original bits in the case apart from the tail piece.He reckons it was TV rather than S/B as it originally had black knobs not see-through ones(??) He also says he bought it from Vintage and Rare in Bath in 2003 who gave him their certificate thingy. Cant remember what their certificates say but I'd say any 3rd party buyer wont have come back against V&R on it!

I doubt the 1st party buyer had much either ;-)

This one is a far more attractive proposition in my opinion...

http://guitar-auctions.co.uk/portfolio-post/lot-29-1955-gibson-les-paul-junior-single-cut-electric-guitar/

But, interestingly, compare the heels...

scalino65

hoho..no comment!
ooh the heels are v. similar arent they!

Xsmnmy

inlays look v white on the guitar-auctions one too - maybe they changed the formula? I'd be surprised if that one goes for less than £2.5K though. Wunjo's had a 50s SC with a neck repair for £2.4k IIRC a few yrs ago - I thought about selling some stuff to fund. Played it and wasn't blown away so I passed, and it sold soon after.

scalino65

well, fella has now added some more pics to the e bay ad..fretboard looks right (at least to my eyes) although dots are quite bright. finish looks nice but that neck heel....i just dont know! any thoughts from those that do know better than me?!!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122347138076?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

ICBM

scalino65 said:

well, fella has now added some more pics to the e bay ad..fretboard looks right (at least to my eyes) although dots are quite bright. finish looks nice but that neck heel....i just dont know! any thoughts from those that do know better than me?!!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122347138076?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

You still can't see it clearly but the fingerboard does look basically right. Part of the problem is his very poor camera - it makes everything look grainy and I think is partly why the inlays look so white.

One thing that helps make me think it's genuine is that the frets are very worn and flattened on top, and heavily grooved under the G string - so much so that it could well need a refret. Although it isn't impossible to fake that, it's difficult to make it convincing, and I would find it surprising if someone did since it then becomes an issue which makes it harder to sell rather than easier.

The heel does look the one in that Clive Brown job, but who knows the real history of that either...

scalino65

Thanks for that. It would be a weird thing to fake, all that effort for the least gain so I think it's unlikely it's a deliberate fake but could it have had a replaced neck at some stage hence the heel? Idid ask him to photograph the cavities too but he didn't seem keen. Would have been interesting as I believe very early jnrs had grey caps rather than bumble bees. In any event it's a long way for me to travel to see it and once again I'm reminded of the minefield that is vintage guitars....

IvisonGuitars

If its original, it's a refret, the '55's had tiny 'banjo' frets on them from the factory.

Seller not wishing to take pics on the cavities is a major red flag though, it's 4 screws and would clear up much speculation.

if it was closer and if it was £1500 I'd take a punt on it. Lot of 'ifs' though....perhaps why it's still sat on eBay....

WezV

miserneil said:

Sellar not wishing to take pics on the cavities is a major red flag though, it's 4 screws and would clear up much speculation.

if its got 4 screws I am saying fake

IvisonGuitars

WezV said:

miserneil said:

Sellar not wishing to take pics on the cavities is a major red flag though, it's 4 screws and would clear up much speculation.

if its got 4 screws I am saying fake

*sigh*...I was waiting for this but thought the resident pedant might jump in first... ;-)

2 screws on the cavity cover....2 screws on the P90 cover.....

There are also 2 on the truss rod if we are being pedantic but that's non original anyway and will tell us nothing....

**edit to cover myself**...unless it's a two way truss rod, then it's definitely wrong...

WezV

In fairness taking the pickup out should also involve taking the strings off, at least to do it safely.  Clearly too much to ask for on a £2.5k sale

usedtobe

Take it or leave it, mate!

  

scalino65

Me again..I now have a pic of the control cav..bumble bee cap..cant read pot dates..looks like its been soldered but then again i guess it would when it was refined. Possible trace of old colour in the cavity - maybe originally tv rather than sunburst..any more thoughts anyone?
cheers
Will

IvisonGuitars

@scalino65 Can you post the pic, Will?

55's wouldn't have a Bumblebee FWIW, it should be what they call a Grey Tiger - a longer brown capacitor with black writing. The pots should be centralab too which are flat backed.

**edit** Just saw the pic on eBay ad. The loom looks genuine, perhaps it's from a later guitar? That paint in the cavity looks like the white undercoat of TV Yellow, but could be from the refin...which looks like modern Gibson to me.

One thing though....I hope the seller is going to spend some of the money from the sale of this guitar on a decent bloody camera!!!

The plot thickens

monoamine

wondering if anyone is going to take the plunge and find out for us!

streethawk

miserneil said:

@scalino65 Can you post the pic, Will?

55's wouldn't have a Bumblebee FWIW, it should be what they call a Grey Tiger - a longer brown capacitor with black writing. The pots should be centralab too which are flat backed.

**edit** Just saw the pic on eBay ad. The loom looks genuine, perhaps it's from a later guitar? That paint in the cavity looks like the white undercoat of TV Yellow, but could be from the refin...which looks like modern Gibson to me.

One thing though....I hope the seller is going to spend some of the money from the sale of this guitar on a decent bloody camera!!!

The plot thickens

Bumblebees started in 1956 but some 55's had bumblebees. Could be original.