Do we have different perceptions of loud compared to Americans?

Moltisanti

I ran a 100w JMP on about 6 once and it was shaking the walls

TTBZ

It does still make me laugh a bit when people say how much their new amp/pedal etc "rips" etc then you find out they're playing it in church... each to their own though I guess!

The JMP combo I play at practice sometimes doesnt seem to get above 2-3 on the master iirc. It makes my Laney seem tame.

gubble

I can't believe everyone is skirting around this and not stating the blindingly obvious explanation.

The air in the states is different to here. This difference causes a difference to the sound waves and how they travel. This in turn means you can turn up an old 100 Watt Marshall to full and enjoy the benefits without bursting your ears drums.

It's just basic physics..........

gubble

Out of interest did Gary Moore run his amps at full tilt live?

Because being at the front for a few of his gigs I can promise you they were painfully loud (literally painful).

I've ran an AC15 at full tilt once during a very loud pub gig - Needed a solol boost. That was magnificent but so loud I thought my internal organs were being jellified.

p90fool

Moltisanti said:

I ran a 100w JMP on about 6 once and it was shaking the walls

I used to gig a pair of them, both channels on both amps jumpered and on 8, the bass player ran two 100w Superbasses on about halfway.

I know times have changed, but these are stage amps, and I'm getting the impression that most of the people saying it's bullshit or macho posturing are talking about how loud they are in a house.

When I do gigs like the one below with a 50w combo I really miss having proper stacks, I can't hear or feel my amp at all and I'm getting absolutely everything through monitoring, which is a totally different experience and sound.

That combo would blow out the windows in my living room but onstage I literally can't hear it at all once the audience are in, I mean literally absolutely nothing.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2rpu3io.jpg

Cirrus

The size of the room and being inside/outside definitely makes a huge difference.

First time I played my AC30 at an outside gig I was shocked at how quickly the sound dissipated with distance - I dialed in my usual tone which I considered quite thick/ rich, and it just sounded grainy and harsh. When I briefly stepped out in front of the stage... it just sounded shouty. Absolutely no power at all. Obviously the PA system did its job during the gig, but on stage it was definitely a case of grinning and dealing with it.

In that circumstance, I can totally see why bands would go for a larger, more powerful amp or 6. It's not so much volume, but generating a tone that actually projects energy and tone forward. Especially in the days when PA systems were limited, you'd need that. My drummer's dad toured with Slade and talks about how they'd have multiple hiwatt 100-watters blazing away, with extra amps at the side of the stage firing inwards to get the coverage on large outdoor stages they needed.

My own personal experience playing bars, pubs, clubs and festivals: you can never be sure how loud you'll need to be. I've played pokey little pubs where I've had to crank up to keep up with the drums, and I've played 10,000-person festival tents (with somewhat less than 10,000 people in them...) where I barely needed to tickle the master volume.

Danny1969

When I was 18, at Highbury College I played a Marshall Jubilee 100 watt into a 4 x 12" completely maxed out in true Spinal Tap fashion ... everything on 11. It was loud, very loud but in their big common room at that age they wanted it loud.
Last nigh I used a Fender Champion 110 which I believe is about 20 watts of solid state power. It was a laidback low volume occasion  .... when in Rome etc

I remember being on the same bill as a Hendrix tribute and the Hendrix clone simply Spinal Tapp'ed his 100 watter to get his sound and the FOH guy, a friend of mine said fuck this I'm off to the bar you can mix this. Well I quickly realized I couldn't ... all I could do was get the vocal almost audible over his amp and that was about it. 

When I was in the South of the US a couple of years ago I saw some of the churchs ..... some are incredible with Digidesign Venue's for FOH, over 100 channels of wireless vocal, stages big enough drive cars on.  My own company 2020 does a bit of church work over here, the annual outdoor "God fest " and such as our churches are significantly smaller 

impmann

My old stage 'rig' was two AC30 sat at half volume (just before the onset of proper overdrive - dig in with s/cs and it growled - on big stages it sounded immense, on small stages it was stupid. I cut it back gradually, as I realised that on the few occasions that sort of power/spl was needed I'd have an engineer to sort that out.

Guitarists aren't good at adapting in my experience - yes gigging big stages or festivals with a 1x12 combo can look/feel a tiny bit strange (your sound coming toward you, not from behind) but if you are good at dialing in an amp, its actually *better*. To explain...

The last time my old band played a festival, I took my Hot Rod Deluxe - I dialed it in to what sounds nice up close to it. The engineer then took that signal and reproduced it *louder* and fired it through the monitors at a volume that I couldn't get, or with a dispertion that you can't get from a stack. It meant I could move around the whole stage and hear a great sound everywhere - likewise so could the rest of the band (obviously the drummer didn't move much, but you get the drift). In short, I couldn't have had a better sound with any other set up - a bigger amp with more speakers would have spilled more and given the others a hard time, whilst not helping the out front sound.

Don't believe the bullshit about huge great backlines pumping away - some do it, and some of them sound fucking awful. Even some huge bands still tour like that - and some don't sound great, as there is just too much stage spill and it just becomes a fight of mids. I guess some people may think "cool, thats Rock n Roll" but I'm not convinced. Plus, when it comes down to it when you look at what is *actually* getting to FOH its not quite what it seems...

It all comes down to what you are comfy with - but don't believe the bullshit that you *need* it, as you don't really and in the vast majority of cases those that think they have a great sound with a blazing backline rarely do - or if they sound great, its often at the expense of the band's sound. And as said above a lot of it is macho bollocks...

Reverend

p90fool said:

Moltisanti said:

I ran a 100w JMP on about 6 once and it was shaking the walls

I used to gig a pair of them, both channels on both amps jumpered and on 8, the bass player ran two 100w Superbasses on about halfway.

I know times have changed, but these are stage amps, and I'm getting the impression that most of the people saying it's bullshit or macho posturing are talking about how loud they are in a house.

When I do gigs like the one below with a 50w combo I really miss having proper stacks, I can't hear or feel my amp at all and I'm getting absolutely everything through monitoring, which is a totally different experience and sound.

That combo would blow out the windows in my living room but onstage I literally can't hear it at all once the audience are in, I mean literally absolutely nothing.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2rpu3io.jpg

I use one JMP 2203. Playing at places like The Forum in Kentish Town (2000) cap venue), Bloodstock, Underworld, Borderline, ATP, HRH stoner v doom, Hammerfest and so on I've run it at about 2 and been crushingly loud. Even playing with the hardest hitting drummer I've ever heard. My JMP at 2 is at least the equivalent of a 900 or Blackstar valve head on 8

olafgarten

digitalscream said:

Maynehead said:

I dimed a 50W Plexi clone (Blockhead) once through a 2x12.

I almost died.

I once ran a VH100R at 2.5 on the master volume, into a 4x12" with V30s in it.

I think they heard me in Scotland.

Where were you? Berwick Upon Tweed? 

p90fool

impmann said:

It all comes down to what you are comfy with - but don't believe the bullshit that you *need* it, as you don't really and in the vast majority of cases those that think they have a great sound with a blazing backline rarely do - or if they sound great, its often at the expense of the band's sound. And as said above a lot of it is macho bollocks...

It's not always macho bollocks, I need headroom and always have. My guitar controls are rarely on 10, and even in pub gigs now I'm struggling with 40w and am starting to miss my last 100w head.

I need power, but haven't used a "blazing backline" for 35 years, when we all did it.

I did do the biggest gig of my life with a 20w amp and the best monitoring I ever heard in my life, but I can't always depend on the soundguy being competent, let alone excellent.

ESBlonde

In Ameriky land everything is bigger, the homes, the shops, the roads, the car parks etc. So the venues can often be bigger too. The 'washrooms' in some yanky bars are bigger than the bars in some UK pubs ffs. US homes generally are multiple times the size of our houses, did you see how open the place is, they just have space man.
That said 50w head at full chat is not something to take lying down.

TimmyO

TGP is a fantasist's playground - I wouldn't worry about it

professorben

TimmyO said:

TGP is a fantasist's playground - I wouldn't worry about it

Ok now it sounds fun. 

shaunm

p90fool said:

impmann said:

It all comes down to what you are comfy with - but don't believe the bullshit that you *need* it, as you don't really and in the vast majority of cases those that think they have a great sound with a blazing backline rarely do - or if they sound great, its often at the expense of the band's sound. And as said above a lot of it is macho bollocks...

It's not always macho bollocks, I need headroom and always have. My guitar controls are rarely on 10, and even in pub gigs now I'm struggling with 40w and am starting to miss my last 100w head.

I need power, but haven't used a "blazing backline" for 35 years, when we all did it.

I did do the biggest gig of my life with a 20w amp and the best monitoring I ever heard in my life, but I can't always depend on the soundguy being competent, let alone excellent.

Are you mainly using pedals to get your drive tones? I can't imagine that you are pushing your 40 watt amp hard enough for overdrive in a pub?

ICBM

shaunm said:

Are you mainly using pedals to get your drive tones? I can't imagine that you are pushing your 40 watt amp hard enough for overdrive in a pub?

Ever tried an amp with a master volume?



To me the great thing about a powerful amp with one is exactly that - your overdrive sound and volume are independent of each other. I want to play at the right volume for the band, not the right volume for the amp... so any amp where you can't turn the volume down - or up - without messing up the sound is fairly useless at a gig, unless you're extremely lucky and it happens to be just right.

I also just like the tone from big amps - it's not the volume itself. The first time I used a 50W 1x12" on a really big stage, I was shocked how small and boxy it sounded, even though it was actually still easily loud enough in outright volume. I haven't found that with 100W amps with more than one speaker, despite not actually playing any louder than a 15-20W amp is capable of.

Wazmeister

Cirrus said:

Have you ever read one of those "things about Britain foreign people think are weird" articles?

Usually once it gets past the point about separate hot and cold taps and saying sorry to people who have bumped into us, I don't recognise many of the things foreign people say we do.

And therein is a lesson.

Wise Shitashi says:

It's easy to make a judgement about an entire nation based on your very small sample size, and a very limited subset of experiences.

It's very easy to be wrong about it.

Brilliant post.

p90fool

shaunm said:

p90fool said:

impmann said:

It all comes down to what you are comfy with - but don't believe the bullshit that you *need* it, as you don't really and in the vast majority of cases those that think they have a great sound with a blazing backline rarely do - or if they sound great, its often at the expense of the band's sound. And as said above a lot of it is macho bollocks...

It's not always macho bollocks, I need headroom and always have. My guitar controls are rarely on 10, and even in pub gigs now I'm struggling with 40w and am starting to miss my last 100w head.

I need power, but haven't used a "blazing backline" for 35 years, when we all did it.

I did do the biggest gig of my life with a 20w amp and the best monitoring I ever heard in my life, but I can't always depend on the soundguy being competent, let alone excellent.

Are you mainly using pedals to get your drive tones? I can't imagine that you are pushing your 40 watt amp hard enough for overdrive in a pub?

@ICBM has pretty much answered for me tbh, but all I'd add is that I play mainly fairly clean and it's headroom I need. 

And yes, judging by the way my reverb and delay tails in the loop jump way up in the mix compared to lower master volume settings, my power stage is starting to compress hard, despite lowish channel gain levels. 

It's a quiet band, with a Flats drum kit, but in a rowdy pub the only comments I ever have about my amp volume is that it's too low. 

We did a fairly polite but appreciative community centre gig on Saturday where nothing was up past halfway and I had plenty of headroom left, but there's a lot of ambient noise in some of our pub gigs, sometimes we have to shout to each other while setting up. 

slacker

 Yes there are a lot of P&W guys at TGP but in my opinion most play at home and when it comes to diming a 50w Marshall they are either lying or the trailer park was empty that night or their dentist wages can afford a house with neighbours far away. 

Cabicular

digitalscream said:

Maynehead said:

I dimed a 50W Plexi clone (Blockhead) once through a 2x12.

I almost died.

I once ran a VH100R at 2.5 on the master volume, into a 4x12" with V30s in it.

I think they heard me in Scotland.

Keep it down .. the weans are sleepin