PMT and Gibson Guitars - Big news and changes

Parker

Wasn't there once talk of Gibson being bought out by a UK amplifier manufacturer? (I'm guessing Laney )

dindude

Parker said:

Wasn't there once talk of Gibson being bought out by a UK amplifier manufacturer? (I'm guessing Laney )

Or maybe Marshall, then they could make Gibson kettles and light bulbs.

crunchman

Bridgehouse said:

The big fear would be a Gibson asset strip, maybe a continued custom shop, and a devaluing of the rest of the brand - Chinese buy and move production to China, anyone?

Don't see them moving production to China.  Their biggest market is the US.  There is no way that a Chinese made Gibson will sell well in the US - especially in the current climate with Trump in charge.

On the wider issue, even with PMT, and Guitar Village relinquishing their dealerships, it would need Guitar Guitar and/or Andertons to stop stocking them (probably both of them at the same time) to force the issue with Gibson in the UK market.

darthed1981

crunchman said:

On the wider issue, even with PMT, and Guitar Village relinquishing their dealerships, it would need Guitar Guitar and/or Andertons to stop stocking them (probably both of them at the same time) to force the issue with Gibson in the UK market.

Andertons judging by their video output recently seem to be resolutely pro-Gibson.  I must visit their store in Guildford, seems to be sort of guitarist heaven in terms of their stock...

digitalscream

olafgarten said:

guitars4you said:

darthed1981 said:

Bridgehouse said:

And it may have been irony/parody in the recent "recommend me a £10k watch" thread, but it gave me the chills when I realised how close to this the guitar market has become.

The warning signs have been there for a while - just look at how much cash the relic market is worth. It adds nothing to the sound, but it's cool innit?

We are all guilty of perpetuating this in one way or other. 

Oh yes a 1000 times yes.  I think even Chappers and The Captain come close to admitting sometimes that mutli-thousand pound instruments are for the person who makes money from music and the very well heeled indeed, the beginner, intermediate or hobby guitarist can find most if not all they will ever need with change from £500, or most can.

Has anyone got any information on how PMT as a business is currently fairing?  It is going to be an extremely challenging year for the guitar business in the UK, and as my local shop is a PMT I'd hate to see them go under.

No way does this decision about no longer stocking Gibson Guitars in the future have reflect their current trading position - From all accounts they are doing very nicely and have expanded a couple of times over the last 12 months - new store in Oxford on its way

Yes, I think the main problem is that Gibson are trying to force shops to buy what they don't want. I know for a fact that another large guitar store are having trouble with Gibson as well. 

They have to buy the whole range rather than just the models that will sell. 

If Gibson had a brain, they'd realise that if they have to force shops to buy certain models, then those models probably weren't a good idea in the first place. Sure, there's the whole "new stuff" argument, but still...the demand has to be there for new models in the first place. I really don't think it's there at all.

Fender and Gibson both need to realise that they've gone way too far down the road of building 15 models of the same guitar, which are more or less indistinguishable from each other, then changing the specs slightly the following year and round we go again. You can only do that for so long, because all people really see is "Strat" or "Les Paul".

Skipped

Nitefly said:

I was genuinely shocked when I was in Dawsons last week - the wall of Les Pauls was decimated.  There were perhaps 6 Gibson acoustics.  A handful of SGs.  The ES-275 was still there, that they've had for about 6 months now, and the few ES-335s were all at £2.8k - £3.3k.   And the Epiphone side was looking nearly as bad.

There seems to be a problem in the North West. Especially when we attempt to define a minimum standard for a company offering services to musicians (and Dentists) who use high end guitars.

If anyone on this thread lives exactly equidistant to Peach and Coda and is agonising about which is best.....I would hope we could agree that this does not classify as a problem.

ourmaninthenorth

Can't honestly remember the last time I set foot in a guitar shop, or indeed bought anything at retail price from one. And yet in the last 5 years say I have bought and sold a not inconsiderable amount of gear.  I don't know which is more personally irrelevant to me, PMT et al, or Gibson's corporate model. 

I shall ponder for at least 5 seconds, before I find something more important to think about...

olafgarten

darthed1981 said:

olafgarten said:

They have to buy the whole range rather than just the models that will sell. 

Out of curiousity, what is it that the shops don't want that Gibson are trying to push?

I'm guessing it is the insanely-expensive custom shop models...?

It was mostly an issue in 2015, when they went big with the robot tuners and wider necks. 

It did start in 2014 though, they were pushing their Min E Tune, and the shops had to buy a certain amount of guitars with the electronic tuners, they were difficult to sell. 

I know GuitarGuitar in Epsom had an Epiphone with the Min E Tune hanging on the wall for almost 3 years before someone I know bought it for a heavily discounted price. 

Whitecat

darthed1981 said:

crunchman said:

On the wider issue, even with PMT, and Guitar Village relinquishing their dealerships, it would need Guitar Guitar and/or Andertons to stop stocking them (probably both of them at the same time) to force the issue with Gibson in the UK market.

Andertons judging by their video output recently seem to be resolutely pro-Gibson.  I must visit their store in Guildford, seems to be sort of guitarist heaven in terms of their stock...

They kinda have to be, or at least appear to be, as it's as much a sales tactic to keep the product moving... gotta keep up with those crazy stocking requirements.

guitarfishbay

I think the only way forward is for them to do a scrappage scheme, trade in your old guitar against a new one, as guitars don't really expire.

Not really sure there's an environmentally friendly way to deal with the traded in guitars though.

Bridgehouse

Irony of ironies - I'm in a consultancy session with a business that's struggling today.

Their main problems?

- Reliance on past success/brand/product
- Cycle of rehashing products with 'new' features that aren't really new and/or wanted
- Limited market that is reliant on distributors who are performing poorly/mixed results
- No real future business strategy

Some of this is quite familiar. The net result? Lots of product discounting leading to very slim margins, an increased cost of sale and a lack of long term strategy as they have become reactive (and not in a good way)

darthed1981

Was just in PMT Northampton, and a good half dozen or so new LP Standards on the racks, including in those gorgeous new blueberry and brown (bourbon?) burst colours.

So expensive but very lovely!

Danielsguitars

I hope all this makes it good for small makers here but competeing with cheaper guitars will always be a problem imo

Someone asked me to make a neck recently so I gave him a reasonable quote which he obviously didn't like so i looked online and found this
Guitar kit build will sell a neck Inc fretboard and frets for £38, I sent him there, can't compete with that

Strat54

darthed1981 said:

crunchman said:

On the wider issue, even with PMT, and Guitar Village relinquishing their dealerships, it would need Guitar Guitar and/or Andertons to stop stocking them (probably both of them at the same time) to force the issue with Gibson in the UK market.

Andertons judging by their video output recently seem to be resolutely pro-Gibson.  I must visit their store in Guildford, seems to be sort of guitarist heaven in terms of their stock...

Coda always stock a healthy amount of Gibson don't forget. Fear not the big F and G will always exist in one shape or form. Maybe someone like Paul Allen from Microsoft  might snap them up one day.

chrisj1602

I lost interest in Gibson when the model year crap started.

mgaw

so many better value for money builders out there as my K Line truxton and K Line LP jr single cut demonstrate...both superbly made guitars, sound fantastic even with me bumbling away on them

Brize

darthed1981 said:

olafgarten said:

They have to buy the whole range rather than just the models that will sell. 

Out of curiousity, what is it that the shops don't want that Gibson are trying to push?

I'm guessing it is the insanely-expensive custom shop models...?

No, those are generally saleable and profitable - it's the regular Gibson USA models that some shops are resistant to. I believe that World Guitars are the only UK dealer that only sell Custom Shop guitars, but I may be wrong.

Whitecat

Brize said:

darthed1981 said:

olafgarten said:

They have to buy the whole range rather than just the models that will sell. 

Out of curiousity, what is it that the shops don't want that Gibson are trying to push?

I'm guessing it is the insanely-expensive custom shop models...?

No, those are generally saleable and profitable - it's the regular Gibson USA models that some shops are resistant to. I believe that World Guitars are the only UK dealer that only sell Custom Shop guitars, but I may be wrong.

WG say "one of only two" on their site. Can't think of the other one off the top of my head though!

https://worldguitars.co.uk/product-category/guitars/electric-guitars/gibson-custom-shop/

Voxman

I can't help but wonder - who's buying all these new guitars anyway?  Is it real players or just folk who like collecting guitars.  There's a guy on the PRS forum who can't play but collects them because he likes the look of them & at last count I think he had 40 plus PRS guitars many of which are top end models.  

And with more & more guitars hitting the pre-owned market, surely ultimately the supply from PRS, Gibson, Fender etc is going to outweigh the demand?  

guitars4you

Voxman said:

I can't help but wonder - who's buying all these new guitars anyway?  Is it real players or just folk who like collecting guitars.  There's a guy on the PRS forum who can't play but collects them because he likes the look of them & at last count I think he had 40 plus PRS guitars many of which are top end models.  

And with more & more guitars hitting the pre-owned market, surely ultimately the supply from PRS, Gibson, Fender etc is going to outweigh the demand?  

The biggest growth in the guitar market in the last 30/40 years is players having 2/3/4/5 and many more guitars - I recall the days when many customers had a Fender or a Gibson - few had both - now many have a good collection - It is almost like it is growing inwards and not fine new outlets - We need a new spark, like we had for Indie/Brit Pop etc