Martin McGuinness RIP

Rocker

A very sad loss to politics and life in Northern Ireland. McGuinness will be remembered for leading the IRA to abandon conflict and into Government. We can only hope that there is someone with sufficient strength of character to continue his great work...

EricTheWeary

I saw the news this morning and looked on here, been surprised how long it's taken for someone to post it.
I'm without strong opinion, TBH,  but MrsTheWeary is pretty much getting ready to dance on his grave. 

Richardj

I guess he will be mourned, along with all of the men, women and children the IRA murdered in cold blood.

Time will tell if his later life will ever make up for that.

joneve

Richardj said:

I guess he will be mourned, along with all of the men, women and children the IRA murdered in cold blood.

Time will tell if his later life will ever make up for that.

My guess is, it won't. 

RocknRollDave

Did he really "lead the IRA to abandon conflict" or did he merely find that the support - financially and otherwise - for armed conflict in NI had dropped off massively, due at least in part to the terrorist attack on American on September 11th? Was the ceasefire due to a genuine desire to move on peacefully or a regretful acceptance that the world had moved on?

Nitefly

I find myself strangely unmoved.  His contribution to the peace process might have been more convincing had it started about 20 or 30 years sooner.

robgilmo

We don't even know if he ever pulled a trigger, he might not have, even in the 70's he was trying to find a peaceful solution to the conflict.

RocknRollDave

robgilmo said:

We don't even know if he ever pulled a trigger, he might not have, even in the 70's he was trying to find a peaceful solution to the conflict.

What role would he have had in the IRA that didn't in some way leave him with blood on his hands, metaphorically or otherwise?

HAL9000

Apparently the BBC only learned about his death following an anonymous phone call.

I'm hoping that in the news clips that will inevitably be shown that his words will be spoken by an actor.

robgilmo

RocknRollDave said:

robgilmo said:

We don't even know if he ever pulled a trigger, he might not have, even in the 70's he was trying to find a peaceful solution to the conflict.

What role would he have had in the IRA that didn't in some way leave him with blood on his hands, metaphorically or otherwise?

Some one negotiating and fighting for peace?

CabbageCat

RocknRollDave said:

robgilmo said:

We don't even know if he ever pulled a trigger, he might not have, even in the 70's he was trying to find a peaceful solution to the conflict.

What role would he have had in the IRA that didn't in some way leave him with blood on his hands, metaphorically or otherwise?

Health and Safety rep?

fretmeister

robgilmo said:

We don't even know if he ever pulled a trigger, he might not have, even in the 70's he was trying to find a peaceful solution to the conflict.

I was only giving orders. guv

RocknRollDave

robgilmo said:

RocknRollDave said:

robgilmo said:

We don't even know if he ever pulled a trigger, he might not have, even in the 70's he was trying to find a peaceful solution to the conflict.

What role would he have had in the IRA that didn't in some way leave him with blood on his hands, metaphorically or otherwise?

Some one negotiating and fighting for peace?

So, you think it is likely that McGuinness joined a paramilitary group/ army* (*depending on which side of the fence you sit) to become their peaceful ambassador? Really?!

Snap

He was a man who had two very distinct phases in his life: a politician and a senior IRA member. How many people he killed, or was party to killing is not established. He never denied or confirmed this, but there is a lot of suggestion he was very actively involved in the IRA murders. Suggestion I say, and allegation, for the record. I don't know, and we should be careful when making such accusations, bearing in mind this is a public board. Just in case....

However, the fact that his fiercest opponent Ian Paisley eventually became big friends with him, when they were both involved in resloving N Ireland's troubles says a lot about change and forgiveness.

I have mixed views on the IRA. They were/are a terrorist organisation that carried out some terrible murders and brutal crimes, but they arose from a position of persecution. Nothing IMO justifies terrorisim, but I can understand how the IRA came to be, and why. I am no IRA apologist, far from it, but we British, by our actions over there, played a very big role in the creation of paramilitary organisations.

Can;t say I am even vaguely stirred by his death, but undoubtedly he was a major figure in the establishment of peace in NI.

RocknRollDave

Snap said:

 we should be careful when making such accusations, bearing in mind this is a public board. Just in case....

He is dead. You cannot defame or slander the dead, legally speaking.


That said, I agree that we should not attribute to him actions that we do not know for sure that he carried out. However, I think it is a matter of record that he was a member of some incarnations of the IRA at some stage in his life.

Gagaryn

It's a matter of record that he was second in command of the PIRA Derry Brigade for at least the first half of the 70's - so including during Bloody Sunday.

He changed in later life and worked hard to secure some sort of peace in Northern Ireland - doesn't mean his earlier life should be forgotten but important that it is considered in the context of the times and the situation in Ireland that had existed for decades before he joined up.

ICBM

He was a terrorist *and* a peacemaker. Both should be remembered, but the second is more important because that's where he ended rather than where he began.

Any man who can sit down and negotiate peace with his bitterest enemy - as Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness did - is worthy of respect. That McGuinness could go to meet the Queen and bow and shake her hand is also remarkable given the history involved - likewise the Queen laying a wreath at the memorial to the 1916 rebels in Dublin, on a visit which I think was at least partly brokered by McGuinness.

We should remember the history in order to not repeat it, but we shouldn't remember it so well we're trapped by it either.

AliGorie

https://twitter.com/crimesofbrits

starwarsnosebleed

He pioneered the world of dry stout. Cheers!

GoldenEraGuitars

As a Scot who has spent 17 years in Northern Ireland I can hopefully add an impartial view.

Ive studied a fair bit of irish history, it's fascinating. But nothing can take away from the fact that it was 1169 or so that the Norman conquests first invaded Ireland. Of course, times were bloody different but it highlights that Ireland has never been left alone or dealt an easy hand. The modern violence we all know about is due to the Protestant loyalists in Northern Ireland oppressing the catholic population. They were last in line for everything and that's just how it was.

The "Brits" were brought over for what was meant to be a limited time in order to restore peace. From what I have read and seen the Catholics welcomed the army with open arms. This didn't last, there was a turning point in the whole timescale that I'll be honest... I'm loathed to remember (must re read my history!). This led to the "troubles" and the IRA that the BBC love to parade about as a terrorist force was reborn. I say "reborn" because the IRA was not a new term (you can read up about that yourself but they did try to remove the Brits before under that name).

Now, BOTH sides have committed attrocities that don't bear talking about in detail. But I live in an area of high activity. You have to watch your mouth around here. Everyone I know has a story. And that's the way it was and still is to a certain extent. There is a bigger picture out there that people don't want to know about because it contradicts what the news bulletins told you when you were younger. If I get time I'll detail more of it for you guys but imo a lot of the violence could have been avoided.

My thoughts on McGuiness? Not sure. He was vital to the peace process. He was also instrumental in a lot of deaths. I know that the IRA bombed English locations but if you want to know the full story you should read up about it. There are names and pasts that you never knew existed and no matter which side they were on their stories are fascinating.

I never suffered at the hands of this man so can I judge him? I don't know. But is Northern Ireland a beautiful and safe place to live? Yes, yes it is. And I'm thankful that my wife and 3 children can enjoy a safe life here because of the efforts made to restore peace.

robgilmo

I think we have to consider as well that things changed dramatically in NIreland between the 60's and 90's, and there were bastards on both sides and innocent people on both sides being killed, and its not a case of ''without one side the other wouldn't exist''. This man soon realised that someone had to change things and peoples attitudes were so strong and deeply set that change wouldn't be easy. I'll bet quite a few people were not happy about the path he took either, which could have went horribly wrong for him.