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I don't know notes too good, I don't mind saying I'd like to improve that ... BUT
I've read and practiced Ted Green's Modern Chord Progressions and Chord Chemistry (still working through) and these work very similar to kata in martial arts. Practice practice practice and they just fall into place. The connection is between my ears and my hands my "head" is out of the way (for the pedants what I'm saying is my frontal lobes are not involved it's all my hypothallumus)
That is to say, I'm playing Danny Boy and I know I go from C7->F | | FM , I can hear the lead line and my ear just picks one of the fragments of progressions that fits in and my fingers fall to it. This frequently honours the lead line or takes few liberties and sounds great.
I find the problem with striving to create original material is it can sound forced, an English analogue may be George Bush's essay at Andover:
I think it can become a compulsion and they're not fun to listen to.
Originality in Jazz is a by-product (to my mind). Originating from necessity to play new tunes and making mistakes due to lack of familiarity or practice time - it's more about pulling it off and having a bit of verve than being cerebral - I kinda appreciate Jobim's rejection of the intellectualising of music.
To that end spontaneity comes from familiarity and that comes from musical context (repertoire). I don't believe anyone can extemporise good improv using fretboard knowledge - playing isn't the time to be trying stuff out, Dario Cortese put it to us (at IGF Jazz class) that improvisation is 80% rehearsed. Miles Davis had a knack of pulling everyone elses improv into his own - but that's through listening to them and imitating very quickly... Coltrane famously spent 3 months cribbing for Giant Steps (if you listen to the alternate takes you hear the same licks in different orders).. on the day Coltrane throws the music under the bands noses 30 minutes before recording... if you listen to Tommy Flannegan's piano solo it is frickin' awesome but he's desperately following the chords and holding on for dear life - which gives it great value.
I can't see the problem with chord shapes as a modality of playing. It's not always going to be appropriate, but I'd like to understand your reservations or perceived limitations.
I am an awful student, I learn slowly because I can't move on without reasonable justification
Probably from Mark Levine's book. Jazz musicians were the jukebox of the day, they had to pick up show tunes quickly and play them after one listen or someone singing it to them. If they got notes wrong it had to sound good still so everyone would keep dancing.. at some stage acceptance of the "variation on a theme" is deemed improvisation and Jazz Improv is born. I imagine lots of booze was involved.
Can't remember where I read the article on Getz/Gilberto and a backlash being held against Beebop and several forms of Jazz that some deemed as being too cerebral to really be classed as Jazz.
I'm not a Jazz historian, I just know the sound it makes when it takes a man's life
Okay I'll be honest, when I see someone using the word stated, and quotes wrapped around my choice of words I immediately think the conversation has gone south, based on (hopefully) a misunderstanding. Maybe 'perceived limitations' was too blunt a phrase, I didn't mean to imply your perception was flawed, far from. I did say reservations too, perhaps the ordering gave one more prominence.. or maybe the tone of the other comments (or previous interaction) influenced it.. anyway I didn't mean anything more than I wanted to understand better.
Perhaps there's a misunderstanding around my view of chords. I'm not advocating a Mickey Baker 21 chords to cover pretty much everything. I like his voicings they're good, strong and useful but pretty soon Danny Boy, The Nearness of You, On the Street Where You Live .. can all sound identical and white-bread (or worse brown-bread).
My view is in a live situation you can't improvise what you don't know. As soon as the frontal lobes start interrupting the amygdala the flow is gone, mistakes and choking happen. So tricks like grabbing notes from a scale in 3rds or 4ths in a harmonic context (if you're really cooking) but for the rest of the time it's a lower order of techniques with a greater deference to timing. But that's just my view.
At present I'm not sure if I've misunderstood the original post, so I don't want to drag it off topic any more than I have
Are we saying that other approaches exist or other approaches have advantages?
I'd be interested to know if there are limitations as at present I view any approach as I view any martial art - the human body only moves a finite number of ways: all that really differentiates martial arts is how we practice those moves and their prevalence.
To my mind F melodic minor is Bb7 and C7 note clusters, so all the 7,9,11,13 voicings are in the mix, the difference is I recall the sound of voicings far better than scales. But that might be because I'm doing something wrong
"There is nothing new in art except talent" Anton Chekhov
What about modern compositions, where the harmony avoids using any thirds.