Are a lot of guitarists just out to impress each other

Teetonetal

guitars4you said:

I love a quote by Santana - when you have nothing less to say then get the f*uck out of there - many should apply that 

However I tend to not think it is as bad now as it was for guitar gymnastics - still see some at guitar shows but not as bad as before

Santana should follow his own advice. nothing to say for 3 decades and counting...

guitars4you

Teetonetal said:

guitars4you said:

I love a quote by Santana - when you have nothing less to say then get the f*uck out of there - many should apply that 

However I tend to not think it is as bad now as it was for guitar gymnastics - still see some at guitar shows but not as bad as before

Santana should follow his own advice. nothing to say for 3 decades and counting...

I thought that might happen - Santana obviously has somewhat of a marmite following

Teetonetal

guitars4you said:

Teetonetal said:

guitars4you said:

I love a quote by Santana - when you have nothing less to say then get the f*uck out of there - many should apply that 

However I tend to not think it is as bad now as it was for guitar gymnastics - still see some at guitar shows but not as bad as before

Santana should follow his own advice. nothing to say for 3 decades and counting...

I thought that might happen - Santana obviously has somewhat of a marmite following

I actually quite like bits of Santana, but I hate that kind of bullshit comment.

ICBM

Schnozz said:

I was just going to say that starting out as a Bassist, they have a completely different mind set and just enjoy being at the party

There are plenty of bass players who treat it as some kind of contest too though… they're usually easy to identify by playing a fancy exotic wood active bass with more than four strings and half a dozen knobs through some kind of tiny esoteric amp. Which doesn't necessarily mean *anyone* who does some or all of those things, but you can be pretty sure that a technique-bassist will do at least most of them - as well as looking down on anyone who plays a lot of root notes or ever uses a pick.

It's probably true of any instrument. There are some who use it as a tool to make music and some who use the music as a means of showing how well they can use the instrument. And there are *some* who can do both.

TheBigDipper

I wish more guitarists would play to a high technical level rather than just slosh their way through poorly-played fast flurries of notes. It's not impressive and it often isn't even music. Hard technical stuff like fretting the note properly so it rings out, or keeping your finger down as you transition to another note because the music says that first note should last for 2 beats not one. 

Technique isn't just about speed, but speed can certainly display your lack of technique. 

But in fairness, when it's done well and makes musical sense it can be awesome to hear a well-played fast flurry of notes. I once went to a Shaun Baxter seminar. His take (I agree with him) is that fast and slow are musical dynamics just like soft or loud. He also suggested guitar playing had fragmented (my paraphrase of his words) and specialised to the point where he could play fast electric but couldn't play an acoustic to save his life. 

Guitarse

It's the shredders that bore me. They go up - down - up - down the scales and all sound the same.

octatonic

Bridgehouse said:

To be honest, it's one of the reasons I moved to bass as my main instrument.

I feel liberated, and I feel more like a musician than a [instrument] player.

Ditto with me moving to drums.
I got tired of spending all the time in the world maintaining my technique on guitar simply for an 8 bar section where I could jizz all over the music.
My focus has shifted to playing songs and lostenimg to the other members of the band and I couldn't be happier.

daveyh

We had a joke back in the late 80's, how many guitarists doesit take to change a light bulb? Twenty Seven. One to change it, twenty six to stand at the back with their arms crossed saying 'I could have done that'.
Nothing new in guitarists showing off, particularly for those of us who were a part of the '80s thing. 

robinbowes

Technique is a tool, but Music first, always.

R.

Teetonetal

TheBigDipper said:

I wish more guitarists would play to a high technical level rather than just slosh their way through poorly-played fast flurries of notes. It's not impressive and it often isn't even music. Hard technical stuff like fretting the note properly so it rings out, or keeping your finger down as you transition to another note because the music says that first note should last for 2 beats not one. 

Technique isn't just about speed, but speed can certainly display your lack of technique. 

But in fairness, when it's done well and makes musical sense it can be awesome to hear a well-played fast flurry of notes. I once went to a Shaun Baxter seminar. His take (I agree with him) is that fast and slow are musical dynamics just like soft or loud. He also suggested guitar playing had fragmented (my paraphrase of his words) and specialised to the point where he could play fast electric but couldn't play an acoustic to save his life. 

Which is why someone like Malmsteen is so impressive from a technical point of view - massively fast, but also wonderfully well executed. 

I don't agree that shred is automatically boring or bad - I think it's much, much harder to be interesting doing it.

guitars4you

BB King mastered the art of saying so much with such a small selection of notes - but it also helps regarding the tune and groove you are playing over - some songs allow you to breathe and what you don't say is just as important

I believe Larry Carlton is one of the greatest guitar players we have heard - yet his solo albums IMO by and large lack any good tunes at all so they become insipid - I almost wish he'd do an album of say Beatles or Burt Bacharach songs and put the Larry Carlton touch to great song writers tunes

It is obviously a case of what floats your boat regarding flash or simple - both have there place - but I just get bored of repetitive tuneless technique - This is the part were 'if you have nothing left to say then shut up' applies - I think one thing we can agree on is poor technique sounds awful, especially when they are showing off and trying to do to much regarding speed and tricks - Yet equally poor technique can sound awful playing a few BB King licks if you don't accomplish those bends correctly

A couple mention bass players above - I think the fade out on  Mr Big by Free is the epitome of a band hitting a simple groove and selling so much emotion - and they were still barely teenagers when this was recorded

SonicScythe

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HAL9000

richardhomer said:

All my favourite players 'serve the song' - Harrison, Knopfler, DG, Mike Campbell, Richard Thompson, etc. I've never had amazing chops - but I've never set out to - though I'd like greater harmonic knowledge.

Totally agree. I'd add people like The Edge, Johnny Marr, Robert Cray, and Keef to the list. Their mindset seems to be that their function is to support the singer (OK, I know with Mr Cray that he is the guitarist and the singer but you get my drift), rather than to show off their guitar playing abilities. 

I hear someone playing a thousand notes per second and I get bored very quickly. For me, a well-chosen run of just a few notes is more listenable and far more effective.

I wish I could find it - there's a John Lee Hooker quote along the lines of 'the audience don't care about the technical stuff - they just need to be entertained'.

The 'Are a lot of guitarists just out to impress each other?' question is not even just about technique, is it? Unfortunately it also seems to be about turning up at your local jam night with the most desirable guitar, the loudest amp, the greatest pedal board acreage, etc.

guitars4you

octatonic said:

Bridgehouse said:

To be honest, it's one of the reasons I moved to bass as my main instrument.

I feel liberated, and I feel more like a musician than a [instrument] player.

Ditto with me moving to drums.
I got tired of spending all the time in the world maintaining my technique on guitar simply for an 8 bar section where I could jizz all over the music.
My focus has shifted to playing songs and lostenimg to the other members of the band and I couldn't be happier.

I love to hear a groove like B Purdie, Steve Gadd and J Porcaro deliver - they create the mood of the song that allows everyone else to feed off it - And with the likes of Purdie, on paper it should be easy to 'copy' yet it is so hard to deliver - Equally the intro to Toto Rossana, those drum chops and 'ghost' notes are awesome yet again so hard to accomplish - Some drummers build sheds others create the groove

BigLicks67

You could argue that classical guitarists play with a high level of technique, that is both impressive to other guitarists and the general public alike. They have the advantage of a wide and well established repertoire that people are already aware of, so that people are not listening cold to new untried material.

Also, guitarists tend to be generally snooty about guitarists who genuinely purely support the song. If I was to say Bob Dylan supports his songs very well, say on Buckets of Rain, I'd probably get the usual BS about how he can't play for shit can't sing for shit etc.

SonicScythe

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dindude

I'm not a technical player and don't really listen to the genre these days, although a bit of guitar playing for guitar playings (or maybe guitar players) sake never hurt anyone. For me it's about personality, Vai has it in his playing is spades no matter how fast he's going, he also has compositional skills and quirkiness. All of these things are missing from most of the YouTube quantised rubbish you see a lot of.

Funny, after that thread yesterday, I was looking around on YouTube at a few shred guitarists for the first time in ages. Malmsteen doesn't do it for me whatsoever, just a barrage of notes. Paul Gilbert, same. I was really enjoying some George Lynch stuff though, again, a lot of personality in his playing I think.

Teetonetal

guitars4you said:

BB King mastered the art of saying so much with such a small selection of notes - but it also helps regarding the tune and groove you are playing over - some songs allow you to breathe and what you don't say is just as important

I believe Larry Carlton is one of the greatest guitar players we have heard - yet his solos albums IMO by and large lack any good tunes at all so they become insipid - I almost wish he'd do an album of say Beatles or Burt Bacharach songs and put the Larry Carlton touch to great song writers tunes

It is obviously a case of what floats your boat regarding flash or simple - both have there place - but I just get bored of repetitive tuneless technique - This is the part were 'if you have nothing left to say then shut up' applies - I think one thing we can agree on is poor technique sounds awful, especially when they are showing off and trying to do to much regarding speed and tricks - Yet equally poor technique can sound awful playing a few BB King licks if you don't accomplish those bends correctly

A couple mention bass players above - I think the fade out on  Mr Big by Free is the epitome of a band hitting a simple groove and selling so much emotion - and they were still barely teenagers when this was recorded

But dig into BB King and you hear the same 10-20 licks played over and over again at different speeds.Even the backing form is often the same. These things are highly repetitive and not particularly inventive either. He plays a style of his time and in the right context it will speak to people but vast numbers will find it tedious.

I hate these conversations as they are nothing more than trying to bash down other people's taste, whilst justifying your own. In terms of original music, there is enough space for all styles to exist and have an audience.

In a working environment the argument is different and it becomes about being the right or band musician with the right outlook, with enough technique to pull off what's required. Be that session guy or covers band.

I can play BB King with feeling, I can shred and burn up a fretboard (though not as good these days). Both are pretty tedious for you average punter who wants to get up and dance.

Music is personal and people like Carols Santana should stop pretending that record sales = better than anyone else.

John_A

Years ago when I was young I was jamming with a bloke who was a lot older than me and a much better guitarist, I played him a George Lynch lick that I was dead proud of, he asked how long I'd been practicing it, I said weeks.  He replied  you could have learned 50 George Harrison licks in that time.

that stuck with me, and I'm now much more musical than I would have been if I'd carried on with the shred

dont get me wrong, nothing wrong with shred when it's done well

SonicScythe

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