Has Trump started WW3

Jalapeno

ICBM said:

Putin being a paranoid dictator does not excuse or justify the Western policy of global aggression in pursuit of resources and strategic gains.

I think by and large we are reacting to HIS influence, resource & territory grabs.  Bush, different story - that was USA's (and by proxy our) mineral rights war.

Gassage

ThorpyFX said:

ICBM said:

VimFuego said:

as I said (and this kinda goes to @jezwynd ) is that we actually know very little for certain, but I would make the argument that there are no good guys in this. We in the west seem to like to portray ourselves as the guys in the white hats, that we stand for decency and good things, and against the forces of evil in their black hats. But both sides are bad and we are getting dragged along by our "leaders" against our will.

This, completely. The West likes to portray itself as promoting "freedom" and "democracy", but most of the time it's simply about oil and gas, other commercial interests, and expanding its sphere of influence at the expense of other powers.

Syria and Ukraine are just the latest in a very long line of this sort of behaviour - they're both the direct result of Western interference in countries which were allied with Russia - in both cases almost certainly driven by gas supply issues.

Russia is certainly not innocent either, but I'm not sure they're actually as bad - Putin is dangerous and aggressive, but he has reasons to be.

Come on, he assinates his political opposition with nuclear isotopes, how bad does he have to be?

Well, ......I know for a fact Blair had a Metal Zone on his pedalboard and that's as bad it gets.

VimFuego

JezWynd said:

VimFuego said:

HAL9000 said:

VimFuego said:

HAL9000 said:

Sambostar said:

You all believed the propaganda about Assad using gas, not only once but twice, the veil of lies is so thin now it's like a burr veneer with the truth shining through like too much glue...

Who do you think did it then? Bear in mind that witnesses saw the Syrian warplanes, and that it has been admitted that Syrian warplanes were targeting rebel positions in the area.

RT have reported that the planes hit a rebel held warehouse that contained chemical weapons. Personally I don't trust RT, but there were reports from the UN back when chemcial weapons were 1st used that rebel forces has used chemical weapons.

Apparently sarin (although AFAIK it hasn't been confirmed that it actually was sarin in this case) is stored as precursor chemicals that are mixed shortly before use. A warehouse is very unlikely to store sarin itself. 
 
The other thing that seems to have been forgotten amid all the talk of chemical weapons and cruise missiles is the targeting of hospitals and clinics after the initial air strikes. Surely the Russians and Syrians can not shift the blame on this one.

as I said (and this kinda goes to @jezwynd ) is that we actually know very little for certain, but I would make the argument that there are no good guys in this. We in the west seem to like to portray ourselves as the guys in the white hats, that we stand for decency and good things, and against the forces of evil in their black hats. But both sides are bad and we are getting dragged along by our "leaders" against our will.

I didn't mean to insinuate that 'we' are the good guys here - far from it, the British have meddled in middle eastern politics with disastrous consequences for nearly a century - but the tit for tat thinking that holds sway nowadays was always likely to result in some kind of retribution. Putin is the master of this stuff, he knows that revenge is a dish best served cold. Trump on the other hand immediately jumps in with both feet due to a few unverified pictures on Fox and Friends.

I'd feel less uncomfortable here if the 'exclusive report' didn't come via the Guardian, their loathing for Trump distorts their vision and makes them give credibility to anything that will put him in a bad light.

Stories about Belgian nuns sent thousands of men to their deaths in the first war, have we learnt nothing?

my bad, I didn't mean to say that's what you said. It more in reply to you correcting me when I said all we know for a fact is that people have died from chemical weapons. I agree with you when you say we don't even know that, it's what they are telling us what happened. Sorry for confusion.

ICBM

Jalapeno said:

ICBM said:

Putin being a paranoid dictator does not excuse or justify the Western policy of global aggression in pursuit of resources and strategic gains.

I think by and large we are reacting to HIS influence, resource & territory grabs.

No, it's the other way round. Constant EU and NATO encroachment into Eastern Europe is the fundamental cause of the war in Ukraine - the western-backed coup there was the last straw. Russia's fear of 'encirclement' by the West is real, and justified - not to mention that Ukraine isn't just some former Soviet republic, for centuries it was the heartland of Russia itself.

Likewise, the war in Syria was started by Western backing of a rebellion against Assad - who had agreed to block the Qatar-Turkey gas pipeline which would have supplied gas to the EU and hence reduced dependence on Russian gas, directly threatening Russia's economy. Hence Assad has to go...

boogieman

Jalapeno said:

VimFuego said:

RT have reported that the planes hit a rebel held warehouse that contained chemical weapons.

Most military commentators have said that exlanation is hogwash, chemical weapons don't function if they're blown up from the outside.

Not going to be WW3, El Trumpanista got permission from Putin first

I think it's a hoot how Trumps Twitter history is being recalled to make him look like the posturing chump he actually is.

I heard a scientist yesterday saying that any sarin would have been burnt off in an explosion, not released into the atmosphere, so I doubt the bombed warehouse theory holds water. 

JezWynd

VimFuego said:

JezWynd said:

VimFuego said:

HAL9000 said:

VimFuego said:

HAL9000 said:

Sambostar said:

You all believed the propaganda about Assad using gas, not only once but twice, the veil of lies is so thin now it's like a burr veneer with the truth shining through like too much glue...

Who do you think did it then? Bear in mind that witnesses saw the Syrian warplanes, and that it has been admitted that Syrian warplanes were targeting rebel positions in the area.

RT have reported that the planes hit a rebel held warehouse that contained chemical weapons. Personally I don't trust RT, but there were reports from the UN back when chemcial weapons were 1st used that rebel forces has used chemical weapons.

Apparently sarin (although AFAIK it hasn't been confirmed that it actually was sarin in this case) is stored as precursor chemicals that are mixed shortly before use. A warehouse is very unlikely to store sarin itself. 
 
The other thing that seems to have been forgotten amid all the talk of chemical weapons and cruise missiles is the targeting of hospitals and clinics after the initial air strikes. Surely the Russians and Syrians can not shift the blame on this one.

as I said (and this kinda goes to @jezwynd ) is that we actually know very little for certain, but I would make the argument that there are no good guys in this. We in the west seem to like to portray ourselves as the guys in the white hats, that we stand for decency and good things, and against the forces of evil in their black hats. But both sides are bad and we are getting dragged along by our "leaders" against our will.

I didn't mean to insinuate that 'we' are the good guys here - far from it, the British have meddled in middle eastern politics with disastrous consequences for nearly a century - but the tit for tat thinking that holds sway nowadays was always likely to result in some kind of retribution. Putin is the master of this stuff, he knows that revenge is a dish best served cold. Trump on the other hand immediately jumps in with both feet due to a few unverified pictures on Fox and Friends.

I'd feel less uncomfortable here if the 'exclusive report' didn't come via the Guardian, their loathing for Trump distorts their vision and makes them give credibility to anything that will put him in a bad light.

Stories about Belgian nuns sent thousands of men to their deaths in the first war, have we learnt nothing?

my bad, I didn't mean to say that's what you said. It more in reply to you correcting me when I said all we know for a fact is that people have died from chemical weapons. I agree with you when you say we don't even know that, it's what they are telling us what happened. Sorry for confusion.

No problem. I feel uncomfortable casting doubt on what must have been a horrific event but the stakes are so high that taking the time to establish veracity seems the best way to proceed.

It's incredible that Assad has held on to power for so long, mostly by muddying the water as to who he is fighting and why.

VimFuego

boogieman said:

Jalapeno said:

VimFuego said:

RT have reported that the planes hit a rebel held warehouse that contained chemical weapons.

Most military commentators have said that exlanation is hogwash, chemical weapons don't function if they're blown up from the outside.

Not going to be WW3, El Trumpanista got permission from Putin first

I think it's a hoot how Trumps Twitter history is being recalled to make him look like the posturing chump he actually is.

I heard a scientist yesterday saying that any sarin would have been burnt off in an explosion, not released into the atmosphere, so I doubt the bombed warehouse theory holds water. 

this is why I hate it when people snip comments, jal has now made it look I said that is what happened, however I said it to highlight that we don't actually know what happened, as was clear in the rest of what I posted.

Jalapeno

VimFuego said:

boogieman said:

Jalapeno said:

VimFuego said:

RT have reported that the planes hit a rebel held warehouse that contained chemical weapons.

Most military commentators have said that exlanation is hogwash, chemical weapons don't function if they're blown up from the outside.

Not going to be WW3, El Trumpanista got permission from Putin first

I think it's a hoot how Trumps Twitter history is being recalled to make him look like the posturing chump he actually is.

I heard a scientist yesterday saying that any sarin would have been burnt off in an explosion, not released into the atmosphere, so I doubt the bombed warehouse theory holds water. 

this is why I hate it when people snip comments, jal has now made it look I said that is what happened, however I said it to highlight that we don't actually know what happened, as was clear in the rest of what I posted.

Sorry - just wanted to kill off the warehouse theory.

VimFuego

s'all good. As I have said on several occasions, I wouldn't trust RT if they told me the sun rises in the east, they are nothing more than a pro putin mouthpiece, but it is helpful to have dissenting voices out there to make us challenge our own party line.

boogieman

VimFuego said:

boogieman said:

Jalapeno said:

VimFuego said:

RT have reported that the planes hit a rebel held warehouse that contained chemical weapons.

Most military commentators have said that exlanation is hogwash, chemical weapons don't function if they're blown up from the outside.

Not going to be WW3, El Trumpanista got permission from Putin first

I think it's a hoot how Trumps Twitter history is being recalled to make him look like the posturing chump he actually is.

I heard a scientist yesterday saying that any sarin would have been burnt off in an explosion, not released into the atmosphere, so I doubt the bombed warehouse theory holds water. 

this is why I hate it when people snip comments, jal has now made it look I said that is what happened, however I said it to highlight that we don't actually know what happened, as was clear in the rest of what I posted.

Sorry Vim. The curse of multiple posts and editing. The post wasn't actually aimed at you, I was just saying what I'd heard: if it WAS sarin that was used it was deliberate, not as a result of collateral damage. 

ICBM

JezWynd said:

It's incredible that Assad has held on to power for so long, mostly by muddying the water as to who he is fighting and why.

No, entirely by having Russia standing behind him. He would have lost by now otherwise. But looking at Iraq, it's hard to say which would be worse...

VimFuego

ICBM said:

JezWynd said:

It's incredible that Assad has held on to power for so long, mostly by muddying the water as to who he is fighting and why.

No, entirely by having Russia standing behind him. He would have lost by now otherwise. But looking at Iraq, it's hard to say which would be worse...

or Libya, a text book example of western intervention leading to a positive outcome...

ThorpyFX

ICBM said:

ThorpyFX said:

ICBM said:

Russia is certainly not innocent either, but I'm not sure they're actually as bad - Putin is dangerous and aggressive, but he has reasons to be.

Come on, he assinates his political opposition with nuclear isotopes, how bad does he have to be?

Yes, he's a very bad man.

However, to date he hasn't nearly started a new European war by engineering a coup against a democratically-elected government, or started a civil war in another country by encouraging a rebellion and ending up causing a humanitarian disaster, or invaded and destabilised its neighbour on a false pretext and produced the most dangerous terrorist organisation in recent history.

Come to think of it, as far as we know he hasn't assassinated a government scientist who was about to blow the whistle on some of this and made it look like suicide either… allegedly.

Putin being a paranoid dictator does not excuse or justify the Western policy of global aggression in pursuit of resources and strategic gains.

Nor vice Versa, but he is absolutely as bad And absolutely plays the same game of pursuit for strategic gains and resources. 

RandallFlagg

VimFuego said:

RandallFlagg said:

VimFuego said:

RandallFlagg said:

Has Trump started WW3? I would say no. If there is a WW3 then it's origins would be the cause of the unrest and shift of opinions that lead to Brexit and the election of Trump in the first place.

it's origins started long before that. In recent times, you had the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, the overthrow of Ghadaffi, the spread of wahabism from Saudi Arabia that has led to both ISIS and the Syrian Civil War, you've had EU and NATO encroachment and expansionism onto Russian borders. All these were long before trump or brexit, your worldview is too narrow and restrictive.

Well that's told me. If you want to get anal about it didn't it start with the warming of the earth and creation of life?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

thing is, you said this is all the fault of trump and brexit, I pointed out it has much deeper and more complex roots.

I didn't say that.

guitars4you

ICBM said:

Likewise, the war in Syria was started by Western backing of a rebellion against Assad - who had agreed to block the Qatar-Turkey gas pipeline which would have supplied gas to the EU and hence reduced dependence on Russian gas, directly threatening Russia's economy. Hence Assad has to go...

this is the bit that has barely been reported by our media and yet as you say ICBM is the reason the conflict first started - since then we have seen so much propaganda that the smoke is getting thick about who is to blame and who supports who, be it USA, UK and Turkey etc

A while ago and 'Call me Dave' and Obama backed rebels to take out Assad and supported such a regime change - then following ISIS attacks on mainland Europe we 'appeared' to change sides and bombed ISIS targets in Syria - Now we are back against Assad

And who is buying all the stolen oil from Syria ????

ICBM

guitars4you said:

And who is buying all the stolen oil from Syria ????

The new friendly fascist dictatorship who will be servicing the engines of our next-generation fighter aircraft.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39501299

guitars4you

ICBM said:

guitars4you said:

And who is buying all the stolen oil from Syria ????

The new friendly fascist dictatorship who will be servicing the engines of our next-generation fighter aircraft.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39501299

agree - and 'stories' indicate that exxonmobil are buying it - and is there not a tie up with Rex Tillerson former CEO of Exxon, now a major player with Donald and previous ties with Putin

behind goverment policies are huge corporate driven companies backed/supported and directed by a huge USA 3 digit acronym 

huge smoke screen that is so thick !!!!

VimFuego

RandallFlagg said:

VimFuego said:

RandallFlagg said:

VimFuego said:

RandallFlagg said:

Has Trump started WW3? I would say no. If there is a WW3 then it's origins would be the cause of the unrest and shift of opinions that lead to Brexit and the election of Trump in the first place.

it's origins started long before that. In recent times, you had the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, the overthrow of Ghadaffi, the spread of wahabism from Saudi Arabia that has led to both ISIS and the Syrian Civil War, you've had EU and NATO encroachment and expansionism onto Russian borders. All these were long before trump or brexit, your worldview is too narrow and restrictive.

Well that's told me. If you want to get anal about it didn't it start with the warming of the earth and creation of life?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

thing is, you said this is all the fault of trump and brexit, I pointed out it has much deeper and more complex roots.

I didn't say that.

erm it's exactly what you said. It's right there, under your name.

Dominic

I am no Trump fan but getting very bored of the fashionable Trump Bashing .
Trump will not be a good president but neither were the string of fools that came after Carter - Clinton was perhaps the most innocuous of those but I fail to see how Trump is any worse than the Bush Family firm.- he may even have a better understanding of commerce as a bonus .
 I think striking at Assad wasn't even a serious assault on the regime -more like Humanitarian Tokenism BUT it was a clever opportunity to do a bit of Sabre -rattling in the name of a good cause
- the real message was to say to Putin "don't make the mistake of thinking I Fuck about " because Soviet revivalism is at an all time high and the Russians are getting a bit too omnipresent in The Baltic let alone Ukraine .

Winny_Pooh

Steffo said:

Assad is bombing hospitals, that's bad enough to me.

So did Israel, be he's not bombing Israel.