Why shoelaces come untied - science answers crucial question

ICBM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39575454

Fair enough if it now provides insight into other genuinely important problems, but… really? Did someone actually get research money to study this?

Anyway, they're wrong.

The correct answer is: because you didn't use a double bow. My laces never, ever come untied - nor as far as I know have they ever once done so after I learned to double-bow them at about the age of… I don't remember. Probably about eight.

axisus

It can also depend on what they are made of. I had these crap shiny laces and even double knots would come undone.

Sambostar

The shoelaces on my Belleville work boots come undone double tied, they are speed laces, one is cotton, one is polypropylene, but then they are soft and falling apart as they are my work boots, on my going out boots, they're old fashioned flat school laces and take an age to remove when I get home from the pub and never come undone even if they are broken and so only single tied, although I only walk in a straight line with them and never bend down or drag them, in fact they are so hard to remove that I've often fallen asleep in the doorway and woken up after I've pissed myself on the horse matting.  But those laces lock together like an ill thought out wrapped rope around your towbar.

Foster

ICBM said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39575454

Fair enough if it now provides insight into other genuinely important problems, but… really? Did someone actually get research money to study this?

You do realise that a deep understanding of why something happens can lead to knowledge that can have huge impacts across the scientific community?

How different would be the world be if Newton thought "Does it really matter why the apple always falls to the ground?"

In the video it states that the findings could be applied to other structures such as DNA, but who really cares about DNA anyway?

ICBM

Foster said:

You do realise that a deep understanding of why something happens can lead to knowledge that can have huge impacts across the scientific community?

How different would be the world be if Newton thought "Does it really matter why the apple always falls to the ground?"

In the video it states that the findings could be applied to other structures such as DNA, but who really cares about DNA anyway?

Yes, I know. And I do know that you can't always predict what direction research will lead in from seemingly mundane questions. But "why do shoe laces untie"… really?

Especially when the answer is because they haven't been tied properly!

VimFuego

ICBM said:

Foster said:

You do realise that a deep understanding of why something happens can lead to knowledge that can have huge impacts across the scientific community?

How different would be the world be if Newton thought "Does it really matter why the apple always falls to the ground?"

In the video it states that the findings could be applied to other structures such as DNA, but who really cares about DNA anyway?

Yes, I know. And I do know that you can't always predict what direction research will lead in from seemingly mundane questions. But "why do shoe laces untie"… really?

Especially when the answer is because they haven't been tied properly!

hmmm, this is not always the case. For example, I work a lot in and around bramble, which frequently catches and loosens my boot laces, irrespective of how well I tie them. I welcome any research into this important, for me, matter.

Foster

ICBM said:

Foster said:

You do realise that a deep understanding of why something happens can lead to knowledge that can have huge impacts across the scientific community?

How different would be the world be if Newton thought "Does it really matter why the apple always falls to the ground?"

In the video it states that the findings could be applied to other structures such as DNA, but who really cares about DNA anyway?

Yes, I know. And I do know that you can't always predict what direction research will lead in from seemingly mundane questions. But "why do shoe laces untie"… really?

Especially when the answer is because they haven't been tied properly!

You've just assumed the answer before you did any research into why the problem happens :P 

Who knows, could be funded by a company like Nike - want to find out why it happens and make more expensive shoelaces?

I always hated at college the phrase "Don't reinvent the wheel", i'd ask them if that was good advice for Michelin and Dunlop.

ICBM

Yes… but…. the reason shoelaces come untied is because you don't double-bow them. It's not rocket science.

NASA reputedly spent millions on developing a ballpoint pen that would work in weightless conditions. The Russians used pencils. Sometimes simple solutions just work.

I'm just baffled that it was even a question, since if you double-bow your laces then they don't come undone in the first place and it's a non-problem - I've been doing it for forty years. It's never made me wonder why single-bowed ones come undone, in the same way that I've never wondered why anything comes undone if you don't do it up properly.

Accepting that Vim and Sambostar work in conditions where even double-bowed ones come undone. Triple bow?

the_jaffa

ICBM said:

NASA reputedly spent millions on developing a ballpoint pen that would work in weightless conditions. The Russians used pencils. Sometimes simple solutions just work.

That's not true though. The issue with pencils in zero gravity is the small bits of lead and/or sharpenings that float away and get into bits of kit.

WezV

i double knot, and every so often shoes still come undone.  it may only happen twice a year, but it's enough to suggest it's a minor problem rather than a non existent one

Axe_meister

For shoe lace not a problem but take the same science and apply it to safety equipment such as a climbing rope, the science of rope/string friction and knots becomes highly relevantly 

BRISTOL86

I double bow and they come undone multiple times per week. God knows what they're made of but they're awful. 

ICBM

That is strange. I genuinely can't think of any time when mine have come undone - literally never. If anything there's the opposite problem, a few times they've been almost impossible to undo.

It must depend on the type of laces presumably.

Sporky

ICBM said:

It must depend on the type of laces presumably.

Indeed.

If your laces were frictionless (or close to) then a doubleknot would not hold. Flat laces have more friction than round ones.

Also as has been noted there are potential interesting and useful spin-offs from this sort of research; innovative measurement techniques, material sciences stuff, better shoelaces...

BRISTOL86

ICBM said:

That is strange. I genuinely can't think of any time when mine have come undone - literally never. If anything there's the opposite problem, a few times they've been almost impossible to undo.

It must depend on the type of laces presumably.

They're almost waxy/coated. So it's like they can't actually get any grip on themselves so they just slide about even in double knots. Very annoying. 

18 months later and I'm still tying them three times a day instead of buying new laces. I'm taking the guitar approach - until they snap they're staying on!!

mellowsun

@ICBM your assertion about double knots raises the question of why is a single knot insufficient and why a double not, why not a triple knot?

Maybe a better way (not Velcro!) of fastening shoes needs to be invented.

FX_Munkee

Shiny Buckles FTW.

ICBM

mellowsun said:

@ICBM your assertion about double knots raises the question of why is a single knot insufficient and why a double not, why not a triple knot?

Because actually the scientists did find the reason - it's because in a single bow, the loop is not locked tightly and can slide through the knot until it falls out. (Although I'm still unconvinced that needed scientific research to discover - it's obvious.)

If you double-bow it - at least unless the laces are made from some material apparently deliberately designed to be useless as a lace! - then it can't.

If I was having problems with double bows coming undone I would either try tripling it or replace the laces with ones that aren't rubbish...

Flanging_Fred

Spray on shoes FTW!

Neil

ICBM said:

Yes… but…. the reason shoelaces come untied is because you don't double-bow them. It's not rocket science.

NASA reputedly spent millions on developing a ballpoint pen that would work in weightless conditions. The Russians used pencils. Sometimes simple solutions just work.

I'm just baffled that it was even a question, since if you double-bow your laces then they don't come undone in the first place and it's a non-problem - I've been doing it for forty years. It's never made me wonder why single-bowed ones come undone, in the same way that I've never wondered why anything comes undone if you don't do it up properly.

Accepting that Vim and Sambostar work in conditions where even double-bowed ones come undone. Triple bow?

An urban myth.

Fisher developed the pens privately and gave them to NASA for free.

As an aside, I find one very useful for doing crosswords when I am reclining as the ink doesn't run away from the point like other pens.

Sporky

ICBM said:

If I was having problems with double bows coming undone I would either try tripling it or replace the laces with ones that aren't rubbish...

Though with the right laces a single bow is pretty darned secure.