Ian Brady dead

mart

Niallseroreilly said:

When modern society realises that this behaviour can be attributed to the effects of scarcity and ultimately the competitive market system and not a supernatural force of evil, there will no longer be awful crimes like this.... sad day to be reminded of this horror....

Could you unpack that a little bit?

I'd certainly agree that a lot of so-called evil can be traced back to flaws in the way society is structured. But I struggle to fit Brady into that pattern, so I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.

EricTheWeary

HAL9000 said:

I see his dying wish (according to this morning's papers) is for his ashes to be scattered on Saddleworth Moor alongside his victims. 

Which isn't happening. 

not_the_dj

EricTheWeary said:

HAL9000 said:

I see his dying wish (according to this morning's papers) is for his ashes to be scattered on Saddleworth Moor alongside his victims. 

Which isn't happening. 

They were saying on PM (R4) last night that he hadn't actually expressed that wish. 

Niallseroreilly

mart said:

Niallseroreilly said:

When modern society realises that this behaviour can be attributed to the effects of scarcity and ultimately the competitive market system and not a supernatural force of evil, there will no longer be awful crimes like this.... sad day to be reminded of this horror....

Could you unpack that a little bit?

I'd certainly agree that a lot of so-called evil can be traced back to flaws in the way society is structured. But I struggle to fit Brady into that pattern, so I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.

My belief is that Brady's behaviour was a product of his perceptions of reality which ultimately were determined by the environment he grew up in and lived in. The competitive society we live in dealt him a hand in which he had no father and was given up by  his mother... which scientifically has been proven can have a damaging effect on healthy brain development


Of course there are many who receive this type of treatment and do not murder..... but then again there could be numerous other genetic and environmental factors that contributed to his actions and obviously ultimately did.

But make no mistake there is a pathology to his sadistic behaviour.

'When people suffer an indignity, they become indignant' 

JezWynd

Niallseroreilly said:

Don't take my anecdotal word for it.... listen to Dr James Gilligan NYU professor and former Harvard faculty member.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmZjm7yOHwE

He constantly returns to the US being the most violent society but neglects to mention that the prime force behind that is the easy availability of firearms. When the flexing of a digit can take a life and self control is lacking... Sure, economics play a big part in developing a sense of injustice and grievance but other factors have to be aligned to create a Brady.

Niallseroreilly

JezWynd said:

Niallseroreilly said:

Don't take my anecdotal word for it.... listen to Dr James Gilligan NYU professor and former Harvard faculty member.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmZjm7yOHwE

He constantly returns to the US being the most violent society but neglects to mention that the prime force behind that is the easy availability of firearms. When the flexing of a digit can take a life and self control is lacking... Sure, economics play a big part in developing a sense of injustice and grievance but other factors have to be aligned to create a Brady.

I totally agree that the availability of firearms exacerbates the issue, but the fact remains that these people are driven to take another life by various factors which I believe stem from the overarching structure of society... which as we know is a competitive system. 

What Brady did was awful and brings horror to my mind when I read about it....but saying he did it because he was evil or demonic is a redundant explanation and not only that will ultimately contribute to another untreated mentally ill person commiting similar atrocities.

Ravenous

Are you saying there would be no problem in a non-competitive system? And what would that system be?

(No offence. Just trying to work out if this is idealistic nonsense or there's something practical to consider.)

Niallseroreilly

I am stating my belief that the competitive system has a damaging effect on almost all of us...but for some the stress and damage is catastrophic and leads to sadistic behaviour.

But of course this competitive system was natural as resources were scarce, so humans had to fight quite literally for survival amongst each other... and that rhetoric still exists to this day...albeit in a more subtle way.

Now scarcity is not an issue, we can create a global abundance and all human needs could be met, but this would not make sense in our current system... i.e if all food and clothes are free which with public effort could be achieved then two of the biggest industries would disappear causing major strife....

So a transition to another system would be in the interest of public health....however transitioning to that would be hugely difficult and would radically change the way life is.

Of course there would be problems in a new system, but I think they would pale in significance to the apocalypse that many feel everyday on this planet.... 1.3 billion live in extreme poverty...

We are just the winners of capitalism.... and guess what were still not happy.

Evilmags

Blaming society on Brady and his crimes is like blaming Cadbury for a bad salad. 

Niallseroreilly

Let me guess @Evilmags its because he was evil.... or he just wanted to be bastard.....

Cirrus

Because there's no such thing as Cadbury? 

Ravenous

Niallseroreilly said:

Of course there would be problems in a new system, but I think they would pale in significance to the apocalypse that many feel everyday on this planet.... 1.3 billion live in extreme poverty...

I agree with you on that part, our habits contribute to waste and slaughter worldwide but we don't care 'cos it's far away and "not our fault".

I also agree that the typical man on the street using words like "evil" just doesn't have the guts to consider what makes people go bad.

I don't agree that "the competitive system" is the cause of so many woes though. It sounds like reactionary anti-capitalist exaggeration and I think it's way off the topic of this thread. I think basic human flaws are the problem, and I believe we'll always be stuck with them.  There will always be a few people who do exceptionally cruel things, whatever system is in place.

darthed1981

Ravenous said:

Niallseroreilly said:

Of course there would be problems in a new system, but I think they would pale in significance to the apocalypse that many feel everyday on this planet.... 1.3 billion live in extreme poverty...

I agree with you on that part, our habits contribute to waste and slaughter worldwide but we don't care 'cos it's far away and "not our fault".

I also agree that the typical man on the street using words like "evil" just doesn't have the guts to consider what makes people go bad.

I don't agree that "the competitive system" is the cause of so many woes though. It sounds like reactionary anti-capitalist exaggeration and I think it's way off the topic of this thread. I think basic human flaws are the problem, and I believe we'll always be stuck with them.  There will always be a few people who do exceptionally cruel things, whatever system is in place.

Yeah this is all true.

Brady was a sadistic and evil man, because he just wasn't wired like a normal person, partly nature and possibly partly nurture.  There are aspects of society that contribute to various pathologies, and these days even technology plays a part.

These people exist at all levels of all societies everywhere.  When they get put in charge you get the Holocaust and the Killing Fields.

Monsters are real, they live among us, that's the sad truth of it.

RocknRollDave

I suspect that Brady didn't know where the remaining body was. I think he enjoyed giving the impression that he DID know, and enjoyed the fact that people were hanging on his every word in case he were to disclose the location.

Am I right in thinking he was taken up onto the moors to help the police search, some time in the late 80's? Maybe he got there and realised too much time had passed and he no longer knew the location, or maybe he knew before he went even back then that he didn't know, and again just enjoyed the satisfaction of having people under the control of his whim.

Niallseroreilly

As this is a forum its quite difficult to articulate in such a complex issue with limited space, but I have read a lot on the subject. 

A great book Heroes by Bifo Beradi details how the competitive structure of our society creates the phenomenon of the mass murderer, especially in males.

Dr James Gilligans work on violence is a revelation and well worth reading.

Gilligan states that listening to the childhood of the most violent murderers and rapists in the US made him shudder at the level of abuse they suffered.

Surely its obvious the environment and structure makes people act in abhorrent ways.

Niallseroreilly

RocknRollDave said:

I suspect that Brady didn't know where the remaining body was. I think he enjoyed giving the impression that he DID know, and enjoyed the fact that people were hanging on his every word in case he were to disclose the location.

Am I right in thinking he was taken up onto the moors to help the police search, some time in the late 80's? Maybe he got there and realised too much time had passed and he no longer knew the location, or maybe he knew before he went even back then that he didn't know, and again just enjoyed the satisfaction of having people under the control of his whim.

What was the process that made him enjoy it? Surely no healthy, loved individual would take delight in these acts?

Reverend

Niallseroreilly said:

RocknRollDave said:

I suspect that Brady didn't know where the remaining body was. I think he enjoyed giving the impression that he DID know, and enjoyed the fact that people were hanging on his every word in case he were to disclose the location.

Am I right in thinking he was taken up onto the moors to help the police search, some time in the late 80's? Maybe he got there and realised too much time had passed and he no longer knew the location, or maybe he knew before he went even back then that he didn't know, and again just enjoyed the satisfaction of having people under the control of his whim.

What was the process that made him enjoy it? Surely no healthy, loved individual would take delight in these acts?

Plenty of people do end up enjoying such acts. Whether they are healthy or not is a separate question.

mellowsun

Incredibly, both BBC News and the Guardian have honoured Brady with an obituary

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12735333

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/15/ian-brady-obituary

Shame they didn't follow The Independent's approach

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/ian-brady-doesnt-deserve-obituary/

prowla

Anyway, the world is now a slightly better place.

RocknRollDave

Niallseroreilly said:

RocknRollDave said:

I suspect that Brady didn't know where the remaining body was. I think he enjoyed giving the impression that he DID know, and enjoyed the fact that people were hanging on his every word in case he were to disclose the location.

Am I right in thinking he was taken up onto the moors to help the police search, some time in the late 80's? Maybe he got there and realised too much time had passed and he no longer knew the location, or maybe he knew before he went even back then that he didn't know, and again just enjoyed the satisfaction of having people under the control of his whim.

What was the process that made him enjoy it? Surely no healthy, loved individual would take delight in these acts?

Would you describe Ian Brady as a "healthy, loved individual"?