Manchester Arena explosion.

Rocker

Snap said:

I think we as a society are too scared to do anything about Islamic extremism and tie ourselves in knots lest we be called racist. Tavernor's post echoes a lot of my experiences coming from Lancashire, and growing up in Blackburn.

IMO, all religious schools should be abolished and there should be no permission granted to build ANY new religious buildings. Build social housing instead, just do something useful with the money and the space, instead of enabling more indoctrination, whatever the flavour.

If you don't want your children attending a religious school, send them somewhere else. Blaming religious schools is the wrong approach IMHO. Live and let live and all that.

Knee jerk reactions seldom work.  I don't have the answers but instilling a sense of pride in all Britons of their Britishness, whatever their background or religion, seems as good a place to start as any.

Steffo

Drew_TNBD said:

Cirrus said:

This is the crux of it for me. Islam doesn't cause these atrocities. If you're looking for reasons, Culture and history do.

(Apols, I had to cut your post down to fit my own in! Not an attempt to quote mine.)

Okay the TLDR of my response is basically this; I already FUCKING SAID IT WASN'T EXCLUSIVE TO ISLAM! I SAID IT WAS COLLECTIVISM!

The long version:

You're reading me very wrong and being incredibly naive and are putting your head in the sand when it comes to the observable facts. Islamic extremism is popping up all over Europe and has been for years now. The reasons given by the perpetrators vary, their backgrounds vary, and the collateral evidence varies. The one constant is religious motivation and collective identity. If it were Christian or Buddhist terrorism that was currently flavour of month with the idiotic disaffected populace, I'd be saying the EXACT same things I am saying now!

Yes it's to do with poverty. Yes it's do with mental health. Yes it's to do with history. But it's not as if religion and collective identity has nothing to do with it - it has everything to do with it.

What would I like to see? I'd like to see outrage on behalf of the British Islamic community. I mean real outrage. I want to see them forming freedom loving militia's to root out terrorism and extremism in their communities. I want to see them sharing Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Sam Harris memes on Twitter. I want to see a 4000 strong protest of primarily Muslims screaming and shouting in Parliament square phrases like 'not in my name' and 'democracy and freedom for all!'. I want to see the stats on extreme conservative opinion within the Islamic community go down. I want to see their literacy rates rise and I want to see them become a valued and critical part of British society. I want to see them form atheist groups down the local library. I want to see them go a bit risque and drink a shandy. I want to see them wearing skimpy little bathing suits and not be judged by their own community for it.  I want to see Mosques struggling to be filled, and having to appeal to society to fix their leaky roofs, eventually resulting in it being closed or turned into an o'Neills or Whetherspoons. I want to see their self-policing mental-North-Korea stockholm syndrome behaviour disappear.

And yes I'm talking generally. I know Muslims who are cool modern metropolitan people. They are unfortunately a very slim minority.

And I'd be saying this if it were any other collectivist group intent on destroying society. Particularly when it's a society that actively encourages individuality, self-expression, and freedom. We can argue about how many bombs our corrupt and shitty governments drop, and we can pour over the final details of our society's problems and our hypocrisy on such matters.

But it's undeniable that our overarching philosophy on life is one of liberty and individualism. And THAT is what I want to see the Islamic community of the UK embracing. Read the Quran and then tell me Islam is compatible with those ideals.





As for all the historical stuff - I agree. But part of collectivism is to say that things that happened thousands, hundreds, or tens of years ago are now the responsibility of the new generation.

Which I think is indefensible. My child and your child should not be held responsible for any Western aggression in the past.

Perfectly worded. I agree 100%

DesVegas

@Tavernor said:

breakstuff said:v

Great posts @Tavernor ;;

... I'm new enough round here not to know whether I'm rocking the boat with how I explained things. 

Rock on my friend.

ToneControl

Rocker said:

Snap said:

I think we as a society are too scared to do anything about Islamic extremism and tie ourselves in knots lest we be called racist. Tavernor's post echoes a lot of my experiences coming from Lancashire, and growing up in Blackburn.

IMO, all religious schools should be abolished and there should be no permission granted to build ANY new religious buildings. Build social housing instead, just do something useful with the money and the space, instead of enabling more indoctrination, whatever the flavour.

If you don't want your children attending a religious school, send them somewhere else. Blaming religious schools is the wrong approach IMHO. Live and let live and all that.

Knee jerk reactions seldom work.  I don't have the answers but instilling a sense of pride in all Britons of their Britishness, whatever their background or religion, seems as good a place to start as any.

you're very wrong
religious schools are a cancer in a society, isolating and tribalising people
they have promoted and sustained the problems in Northern Ireland,
and they are creating problems in England right now

Heartfeltdawn

ToneControl said:

Born in Manchester, a city full of different cultures and races, but thought it was right to do this.

How could this have happened in the absence of religion?

Non-religious radicalisation does exist. I would recommend reading this and this paper from the Egmont Institute. That sense of belonging is something that runs through all manner of groups outside of society, football ultras through to the animal liberation groups who weren't afraid to use bombs in the past. Although religion does play a large part in these kind of terrorist incidents, putting the blame entirely on the religion simply isn't true.  

menamestom

Rocker said:

Snap said:

I think we as a society are too scared to do anything about Islamic extremism and tie ourselves in knots lest we be called racist. Tavernor's post echoes a lot of my experiences coming from Lancashire, and growing up in Blackburn.

IMO, all religious schools should be abolished and there should be no permission granted to build ANY new religious buildings. Build social housing instead, just do something useful with the money and the space, instead of enabling more indoctrination, whatever the flavour.

If you don't want your children attending a religious school, send them somewhere else. 

The best school near us is a Catholic school but looking at the entrance criteria we're basically excluded.  I have no issue with that but I have a big issue with my taxes paying for it.  We pay for it but are not part of 'the club'.   That's wrong.
Faith schools should be 100% self funded, then their popularity and influence would wain to exacly what is should be.

OR they should take kids of all backgrounds / beliefs and not have this rediculous sliding scale of club membership points.   Personally I think taking more non religious people would balance them out a bit.

Heartfeltdawn

Drew_TNBD said:

The long version:

You're reading me very wrong and being incredibly naive and are putting your head in the sand when it comes to the observable facts. Islamic extremism is popping up all over Europe and has been for years now. The reasons given by the perpetrators vary, their backgrounds vary, and the collateral evidence varies. The one constant is religious motivation and collective identity. If it were Christian or Buddhist terrorism that was currently flavour of month with the idiotic disaffected populace, I'd be saying the EXACT same things I am saying now!

Yes it's to do with poverty. Yes it's do with mental health. Yes it's to do with history. But it's not as if religion and collective identity has nothing to do with it - it has everything to do with it.

What would I like to see? I'd like to see outrage on behalf of the British Islamic community. I mean real outrage. I want to see them forming freedom loving militia's to root out terrorism and extremism in their communities. I want to see them sharing Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Sam Harris memes on Twitter. I want to see a 4000 strong protest of primarily Muslims screaming and shouting in Parliament square phrases like 'not in my name' and 'democracy and freedom for all!'. I want to see the stats on extreme conservative opinion within the Islamic community go down. I want to see their literacy rates rise and I want to see them become a valued and critical part of British society. I want to see them form atheist groups down the local library. I want to see them go a bit risque and drink a shandy. I want to see them wearing skimpy little bathing suits and not be judged by their own community for it.  I want to see Mosques struggling to be filled, and having to appeal to society to fix their leaky roofs, eventually resulting in it being closed or turned into an o'Neills or Whetherspoons. I want to see their self-policing mental-North-Korea stockholm syndrome behaviour disappear.

And yes I'm talking generally. I know Muslims who are cool modern metropolitan people. They are unfortunately a very slim minority.

And I'd be saying this if it were any other collectivist group intent on destroying society. Particularly when it's a society that actively encourages individuality, self-expression, and freedom. We can argue about how many bombs our corrupt and shitty governments drop, and we can pour over the final details of our society's problems and our hypocrisy on such matters.

But it's undeniable that our overarching philosophy on life is one of liberty and individualism. And THAT is what I want to see the Islamic community of the UK embracing. Read the Quran and then tell me Islam is compatible with those ideals.

As for all the historical stuff - I agree. But part of collectivism is to say that things that happened thousands, hundreds, or tens of years ago are now the responsibility of the new generation.

Which I think is indefensible. My child and your child should not be held responsible for any Western aggression in the past.

Much to think about. Two things pop up, the first being a question. 

1) I think of the usual targets you have: Muslims, religion, feminists, political groups in general, the SJW types who form their little societies. I then think of the other groups you've had a pop at on this forum. Admins. The forum in general. Customers of your employer. 

So away from Islam I'll ask you this: why do you have such a problem with groups? Ignore Islam. Forget that entirely. It strikes me that you dislike so many groups with an overarching ethos, collectivism, call it what you may. 

2) Islam undoubtedly has a problem regarding fundamentalism, terrorism, and the more extreme side of things. It's equally undeniable in my opinion that the West played a pivotal role in this extremism developing. We as a nation can accept that our part in the Treaty of Versailles helped lay the environment for the rise of everyone's favourite sausage guzzling online debate killer: accepting that our leaders going back several years, not least with the Iran-Iraq War in the 1980's, didn't exactly represent Western values in the best light overseas. 

One final thought and it revolves around this:

"But it's undeniable that our overarching philosophy on life is one of liberty and individualism."

I agree on liberty. Individualism on the other hand is not our overarching philosophy. Schools are based around the collective approach, both state and private, mostly obviously with the Old Boy/Girl societies. The enormous success of the Premier League is built on collectivism, hence making people in far off lands feel like they're part of a team from Manchester for instance. A huge number of jobs from the Civil Service to the NHS to any number of corporate private industries place your ability to work as part of a collective way ahead of any individual considerations. Our taxation system is about collectivism. We don't have our individualism squashed out of us a la North Korea but there's the constant reminder that you are an individual who is part of a much wider team. 

If you want to see how odd individualism looks when it's applied in large amounts, you only have to look at the current Conservative Theresa May election campaign versus that of the Labour Party. Truly individualism versus collectivism. 

Drew_TNBD

Heartfeltdawn said:

Much to think about. Two things pop up, the first being a question. 

1) I think of the usual targets you have: Muslims, religion, feminists, political groups in general, the SJW types who form their little societies. I then think of the other groups you've had a pop at on this forum. Admins. The forum in general. Customers of your employer. 

So away from Islam I'll ask you this: why do you have such a problem with groups? Ignore Islam. Forget that entirely. It strikes me that you dislike so many groups with an overarching ethos, collectivism, call it what you may. 

Groups are - let's use a buzzword for a change - problematic.

They're open to conformity, peer pressure, regressiveness, stagnation, and a whole host of things that psychology and social science has shown us time and time again. From the Stanford prison experiment to the Asch experiment, we can see that groups have the overwhelming power to make individuals do insidious and evil things. This needs to be tempered in society I think.

Groups also reinforce tribalism, racism, ethnocentrism, and gender-roles.

2) Islam undoubtedly has a problem regarding fundamentalism, terrorism, and the more extreme side of things. It's equally undeniable in my opinion that the West played a pivotal role in this extremism developing. We as a nation can accept that our part in the Treaty of Versailles helped lay the environment for the rise of everyone's favourite sausage guzzling online debate killer: accepting that our leaders going back several years, not least with the Iran-Iraq War in the 1980's, didn't exactly represent Western values in the best light overseas. 

You don't just get to cherry pick from the whole of history where the West rightly or wrongly intervened in the Middle East. You have to take it all. You have to take the Ottoman Empire and their unjustified aggression to Wallachia and other European countries. You have to take the murder of countless numbers of Christians, Jews, Persians, Iranians, and other peoples. You have to take the fact that Muhammad married a 6 year old and graciously waited until she was 9 before fucking her. You have to take Jizya, Taqiya, and other forms of discrimination and lies propagated throughout the ages in order to consolidate power and demean the enemy. There is more, but I'm sure you get the gist.

I absolutely agree that all those things you mentioned have a part to play. I absolutely agree that they need to be explored and accounted for.

I don't accept that they're in anyway a justification or explanation for a 22 year old boy doing what he did on Monday night.

One final thought and it revolves around this:
"But it's undeniable that our overarching philosophy on life is one of liberty and individualism."
I agree on liberty. Individualism on the other hand is not our overarching philosophy. Schools are based around the collective approach, both state and private, mostly obviously with the Old Boy/Girl societies. The enormous success of the Premier League is built on collectivism, hence making people in far off lands feel like they're part of a team from Manchester for instance. A huge number of jobs from the Civil Service to the NHS to any number of corporate private industries place your ability to work as part of a collective way ahead of any individual considerations. Our taxation system is about collectivism. We don't have our individualism squashed out of us a la North Korea but there's the constant reminder that you are an individual who is part of a much wider team. 

All of those things are necessary for individuals to pursue their liberty. We have schools and base them around a collective approach so that education can serve everyone and enable them to pursue their individuality. Individuality is not something we are inherently capable of imho. We are animals and are tribal by our nature. Individuality and free-thought is something that we have to strive for and fight for, in order to rise above our bestial and animalistic forms.

The premier league is exactly the sort of revelling in our base nature type of thing that I'm talking about. It's tribal and often nationalistic. It's relegating the mind to backseat in order to hold up the physical form. It's a modern day coliseum, and instead of stabbing people through the eye with a spear, they kick a ball through a net.

The NHS is a necessity because it allows a population to seek healthiness. A healthy body enables a healthy mind which enables individualism. IMHO.

If you want to see how odd individualism looks when it's applied in large amounts, you only have to look at the current Conservative Theresa May election campaign versus that of the Labour Party. Truly individualism versus collectivism. 

This stuff is very deep and very serious. Very serious indeed. It can't be swept away with pithy one-liners and the comedy of tragedy. The dichotomy between collectivism and individualism has followed humanity down through the ages like a spectre, and it has driven smarter men than me completely insane.

Throughout my life I've dabbled in a variety of philosophical areas, not finding answers as such, but finding out more about myself. Currently I am pre-occupied with this dichotomy and it manifests in my distaste for those groups you mentioned. I acknowledge that we NEED some sort of collective. We literally cannot function as a planet without them. But they do pose deep problems for our world, and religion and Islam is just scratching the surface.

At the moment I'm a Jordan B. Peterson fanatic. He's some sort of Christian and he isn't right about everything. But I admire the way his brain works and see parallels with my own. (Only now do I feel like I sound like a pretentious cunt!)

Seriously, I know quite a lot about psychology being an enthusiast. I wanted to study it as a child, but I have this lazy neurosis that I really struggle to shake. I also think I have some sort of hypergraphia too, because I write constantly. It's why I spend so much time on forums when I should be playing guitar!!

Placidcasual79

Drew_TNBD said:

Cirrus said:

This is the crux of it for me. Islam doesn't cause these atrocities. If you're looking for reasons, Culture and history do.

(Apols, I had to cut your post down to fit my own in! Not an attempt to quote mine.)

Okay the TLDR of my response is basically this; I already FUCKING SAID IT WASN'T EXCLUSIVE TO ISLAM! I SAID IT WAS COLLECTIVISM!

The long version:

You're reading me very wrong and being incredibly naive and are putting your head in the sand when it comes to the observable facts. Islamic extremism is popping up all over Europe and has been for years now. The reasons given by the perpetrators vary, their backgrounds vary, and the collateral evidence varies. The one constant is religious motivation and collective identity. If it were Christian or Buddhist terrorism that was currently flavour of month with the idiotic disaffected populace, I'd be saying the EXACT same things I am saying now!

Yes it's to do with poverty. Yes it's do with mental health. Yes it's to do with history. But it's not as if religion and collective identity has nothing to do with it - it has everything to do with it.

What would I like to see? I'd like to see outrage on behalf of the British Islamic community. I mean real outrage. I want to see them forming freedom loving militia's to root out terrorism and extremism in their communities. I want to see them sharing Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Sam Harris memes on Twitter. I want to see a 4000 strong protest of primarily Muslims screaming and shouting in Parliament square phrases like 'not in my name' and 'democracy and freedom for all!'. I want to see the stats on extreme conservative opinion within the Islamic community go down. I want to see their literacy rates rise and I want to see them become a valued and critical part of British society. I want to see them form atheist groups down the local library. I want to see them go a bit risque and drink a shandy. I want to see them wearing skimpy little bathing suits and not be judged by their own community for it.  I want to see Mosques struggling to be filled, and having to appeal to society to fix their leaky roofs, eventually resulting in it being closed or turned into an o'Neills or Whetherspoons. I want to see their self-policing mental-North-Korea stockholm syndrome behaviour disappear.

And yes I'm talking generally. I know Muslims who are cool modern metropolitan people. They are unfortunately a very slim minority.

And I'd be saying this if it were any other collectivist group intent on destroying society. Particularly when it's a society that actively encourages individuality, self-expression, and freedom. We can argue about how many bombs our corrupt and shitty governments drop, and we can pour over the final details of our society's problems and our hypocrisy on such matters.

But it's undeniable that our overarching philosophy on life is one of liberty and individualism. And THAT is what I want to see the Islamic community of the UK embracing. Read the Quran and then tell me Islam is compatible with those ideals.





As for all the historical stuff - I agree. But part of collectivism is to say that things that happened thousands, hundreds, or tens of years ago are now the responsibility of the new generation.

Which I think is indefensible. My child and your child should not be held responsible for any Western aggression in the past.

F*ck. I agree with Drew. 

Heartfeltdawn

Drew_TNBD said:

Groups are - let's use a buzzword for a change - problematic.


All of those things are necessary for individuals to pursue their liberty. We have schools and base them around a collective approach so that education can serve everyone and enable them to pursue their individuality. Individuality is not something we are inherently capable of imho. We are animals and are tribal by our nature. Individuality and free-thought is something that we have to strive for and fight for, in order to rise above our bestial and animalistic forms.

The premier league is exactly the sort of revelling in our base nature type of thing that I'm talking about. It's tribal and often nationalistic. It's relegating the mind to backseat in order to hold up the physical form. It's a modern day coliseum, and instead of stabbing people through the eye with a spear, they kick a ball through a net.

The NHS is a necessity because it allows a population to seek healthiness. A healthy body enables a healthy mind which enables individualism. IMHO.

If you want to see how odd individualism looks when it's applied in large amounts, you only have to look at the current Conservative Theresa May election campaign versus that of the Labour Party. Truly individualism versus collectivism. 

This stuff is very deep and very serious. Very serious indeed. It can't be swept away with pithy one-liners and the comedy of tragedy. The dichotomy between collectivism and individualism has followed humanity down through the ages like a spectre, and it has driven smarter men than me completely insane.

Throughout my life I've dabbled in a variety of philosophical areas, not finding answers as such, but finding out more about myself. Currently I am pre-occupied with this dichotomy and it manifests in my distaste for those groups you mentioned. I acknowledge that we NEED some sort of collective. We literally cannot function as a planet without them. But they do pose deep problems for our world, and religion and Islam is just scratching the surface.

At the moment I'm a Jordan B. Peterson fanatic. He's some sort of Christian and he isn't right about everything. But I admire the way his brain works and see parallels with my own. (Only now do I feel like I sound like a pretentious cunt!)

Seriously, I know quite a lot about psychology being an enthusiast. I wanted to study it as a child, but I have this lazy neurosis that I really struggle to shake. I also think I have some sort of hypergraphia too, because I write constantly. It's why I spend so much time on forums when I should be playing guitar!!

Groups can and are problematic. But if you take away those groups, support networks, associations etc, then you can end up creating individuals with problems of their own.

Regarding cherry picking: I just prefer to choose from a history within the last 100 years and therefore don't really care about going back to the Ottoman Empire. I look at my own life and ask why terrorism has really moved from being the domain of Irish terrorists to something else. The ills of Islam I am well familiar with. But it's rather hard to present Great Britain as being morally superior to Islam and a role model for how a society should be and how leaders should act when our leaders over the last 37 years going back to the origins of the Iran-Iraq war have acted at best cack-handedly in areas of the Middle East. And that's really what we have to do if we are to strip away the power of religion full stop, to demonstrate that a secular framework for life is of a higher standard. 

I agree that we need those within Islam to embrace the need for change. I've wondered if we need a Paisley or Mandela-type figure to rally around: quite probably. 

I certainly don't believe that the West's actions justify what Salman Abedi did. Absolutely 100% no chance daddy-o. 

The older I get, the more capable of individuality I feel I have become. I shall have to give this one more thought, not least as my eyes are fogging over. Time for a bout of vaping and then bed. 

Brad

As a proud Mancunian the shock is only slowly starting to wear off. A first gig is a rite of passage, a life changing and affirming experience, it just should never be a life ending one. 

My thoughts are with the victims and families, and also Ariana Grande who must feel utterly riddled with guilt. The emergency services and the people offering their cars and homes to help those in distress.

We have faced very clear problems and divisions in our society for some time and I've no idea what the solutions could be. In a very minuscule way it's even evident on this forum, the puerile name calling and insults I've read on a lot of these political threads is just sad. Until we realise we have more in common with each other than that which divides us, how can we move forwards and make progress as a species?

All I believe is that intolerance, hate and violence breeds more intolerance, hate and violence. 

Ultimately, in it's most basic essence, mankind has an unquenchable thirst for power and control. It's been so since the beginning of time and it doesn't look like it's going to end any time soon. Throw in centuries of deep rooted foreign policy aggression and blunder (across every political and religious/cultural divide), it's no surprise where we find ourselves... 

Jimi said it best - ''When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace"

Tavernor

Heartfeltdawn said:

The older I get, the more capable of individuality I feel I have become. 

The older I get, the better I used to be; that's why it's an especially bitter pill that fanatical hatred can be pushed on children. Terrible. I remember being interviewed by the BBC in London around Christmas time and asked whether I thought 2017 would be a better or worse year than 2016. I made light of the question and erred on the side of optimism (perhaps in the face of logic) but attacking kids trying to have fun is a new low.

Remembered a quote which seemed apt earlier, no idea who said it or the exact phrasing but it was along the lines of, 'left to their own devices, good people will generally do good things and bad people will do bad things. It takes religion to make a good man do bad things'.

Flying in the face of that, I do often wish I was sincerely religious. Having genuine faith in a higher power must be a great comfort in dire times. 

Fretwired

From today's Times:

Firefighters were prevented from helping victims of the Manchester terror attack for a full 90 minutes on orders from their bosses, it has been claimed.

Save the UK Fire Service, a firefighters’ website, said there had been demands for the mayor to investigate. One firefighter criticised fire chiefs in the Manchester Evening News for the decision. “Their lack of leadership was reflected in the desperate pleas of North West Ambulance Service staff shouting that firefighters were needed at the scene,” he said. “They were sat at Manchester Central fire station watching the incident unfold on TV. The station is half a mile from the incident.”

Andy Burnham, the Greater Manchester mayor, has said he will order an independent review into the decision, which meant paramedics were left to treat dozens of victims alone. Five fire engines were eventually dispatched, but by then all the most dangerous work had been done.

I don't understand why the fire brigade weren't sent in when the ambulance service was there ...

joneve

Fretwired said:

From today's Times:

Firefighters were prevented from helping victims of the Manchester terror attack for a full 90 minutes on orders from their bosses, it has been claimed.

Save the UK Fire Service, a firefighters’ website, said there had been demands for the mayor to investigate. One firefighter criticised fire chiefs in the Manchester Evening News for the decision. “Their lack of leadership was reflected in the desperate pleas of North West Ambulance Service staff shouting that firefighters were needed at the scene,” he said. “They were sat at Manchester Central fire station watching the incident unfold on TV. The station is half a mile from the incident.”

Andy Burnham, the Greater Manchester mayor, has said he will order an independent review into the decision, which meant paramedics were left to treat dozens of victims alone. Five fire engines were eventually dispatched, but by then all the most dangerous work had been done.

I don't understand why the fire brigade weren't sent in when the ambulance service was there ...

what the actual fuck???

Handsome_Chris

And now they're talking about bring back the death penalty for terrorists.

I bet those suicide bombers are worried!

 :P 

Fretwired

An army bomb disposal team is attending an incident at a college in Trafford, Greater Manchester Police said

The force said it was too early to say whether the alert is linked to its investigation into the Manchester bomb attack.

Here we go again ...

richardhomer

Fretwired said:

An army bomb disposal team is attending an incident at a college in Trafford, Greater Manchester Police said

The force said it was too early to say whether the alert is linked to its investigation into the Manchester bomb attack.

Here we go again ...

Package declared safe, thank God....

Handsome_Chris

richardhomer said:

Fretwired said:

An army bomb disposal team is attending an incident at a college in Trafford, Greater Manchester Police said

The force said it was too early to say whether the alert is linked to its investigation into the Manchester bomb attack.

Here we go again ...

Package declared safe, thank God....

Or alternatively thank the good men and women of 11 EOD Regt RLC who deal with IEDs on an all to regular basis.

http://www.felixfund.org.uk/

Fretwired

From the RAF to IS .. bomb on a Tornado about to head out on a raid .. go get 'em boys ..

sweepy

Faith based schools are an issue and imho should be removed from the Public Funded purse, if their God is so bountiful, let them pay it them selves