Will University fees change?

ThePrettyDamned

Problem based learning! That's it. Mine wasn't - it was old school education, versus the problem based learning of the engineering. 

Fretwired

Myranda said:

But are they adult education courses?

Anyone can go on them and they're run in the daytime or evening. You might have to pay a fee, but it's not much.

Adult education is about giving skills to people who missed out at school - GCSEs and basic apprenticeships.

Snap

I think there is now a misguided belief that education is a right. Its not. Its one of many paths available to an 18 year old in order to develop and educate themselves. It shouldn't be seen as an almost assumed route.

Should any higher education be free though? Debatable. There is a good argument to say that is in the interest of the country to eductate or train people as much as they want, and are able. On the other side, if its totally free, it can become devalued.

The idea that 50% of school leavers should get a degree is nonsense though: why is that then? Its a finger in the air aspiration. What we need are people skilled enough to support and develop the country and our society, if not the world. That means we need everyone from a road sweeper to a rocket scientist.

Today you can see the problem of the reduction in apprenticeships: its a trcky business finding a good and reliable tradesman. We need plumbers just as much as we need doctors.

As for only having degrees that are "worthy" or "useful" - who makes that call? Is an architect any more useful than a scholar of medieval poetry? How do you make that qualification? Is it better to have well designed offices, or cultural appreciaton of who we are and where we have come from? I'd say, neither and both, but if you are top make the call between them. who makes it?

Sporky

ThePrettyDamned said:

Sporky said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

The longer the course went on, the more I realised I like being hands on - engineering may have suited me better. 

Engineering degrees don't teach you to be a machinist or technician or mechanic.

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding in the UK about what an engineering degree actually involves. You don't get a lot of grease on you.

No, but you learn practical techniques and design skills - there is context to what you learn. 

I don't think my degree included much of either. We built a few breadboard circuits in first year labs, but no soldering, and there wasn't as much emphasis on design skills as I think there should be. A lot of it was the fundamentals of engineering, starting with the maths and physics. We did analogue design before digital design because digital circuits are still analogue circuits, for example, and we did the maths to support the analysis of the analogue circuits. If you go into digital design without understanding the analogue reality beneath it then you risk hitting all sorts of problems because digital systems aren't just 0s and 1s - the transitions between are really, really important.

chillidoggy

Apropos the degree and it's usefulness, my old man always used to say "We'll still need people to empty the bins."

I couldn't agree more, however it's become clear over the years the bin-wankers in my area must have dropped out of their degree courses as they can't seem to complete the seemingly simple task of bin-emptying without cocking it up.

Axe_meister

One of the issues is a lot of hands on type jobs have now gone abroad wheee labour is cheap. I think the idea was to move our economy to a knowledge based one but forgetting the IQ bell curve.
So now we have a situation that if you have an IQ of 100 or above you should go to uni. However the truely academic/STEM subjects require a far higher IQ. So courses are either dumbed down or lesser courses courses have been promoted to degree level.
We need to rebalance our economy so we have jobs that don't require a degree. We'll never compete with India/China on price but could on quality, but again that would also mean a change in the British attitude to work and quality. (Which has gone downhill in my experience).
Germany seems to have gotten the balance right but they are now suffering from an aging population.

digitalscream

Snap said:

Should any higher education be free though? Debatable. There is a good argument to say that is in the interest of the country to eductate or train people as much as they want, and are able. On the other side, if its totally free, it can become devalued.

That's the irony - it was free, but it's only since fees were introduced that degrees have become devalued because there's a financial incentive for universities to get as many bums on seats as possible. Thus the entry requirements have dropped - I mean, I've seen degrees offered by our local college (in association with Anglia Ruskin) for which the only requirement was a single D at A-level, in any subject.

A single D, to me, is most definitely not an indication of aptitude suitable for the highest level of non-research-based qualification available.

My wife did one of those degrees (hers was Graphic Design), and the "education" they received was utterly awful. Most of the final work produced by the students was GCSE-level at best, yet almost all of them got 2:1s. Hell, I proof-read some of their final essays as a favour, and the writing was probably around the level of what I'd expect from a primary school leaver.

Myranda

digitalscream said:

Snap said:

Should any higher education be free though? Debatable. There is a good argument to say that is in the interest of the country to eductate or train people as much as they want, and are able. On the other side, if its totally free, it can become devalued.

That's the irony - it was free, but it's only since fees were introduced that degrees have become devalued because there's a financial incentive for universities to get as many bums on seats as possible. Thus the entry requirements have dropped - I mean, I've seen degrees offered by our local college (in association with Anglia Ruskin) for which the only requirement was a single D at A-level, in any subject.

A single D, to me, is most definitely not an indication of aptitude suitable for the highest level of non-research-based qualification available.

My wife did one of those degrees (hers was Graphic Design), and the "education" they received was utterly awful. Most of the final work produced by the students was GCSE-level at best, yet almost all of them got 2:1s. Hell, I proof-read some of their final essays as a favour, and the writing was probably around the level of what I'd expect from a primary school leaver.

Just a tiny point Batchelors is the second highest taught qualification - Masters is the highest... 

Anglia Ruskin aside I've never seen an institution offering a place with such low requirements (well except the OU which has no requirements, but the that's balanced by their scoring system 84% is a pass, 85% a first... So you either work hard or get a joke degree) 

digitalscream

Myranda said:

Just a tiny point Batchelors is the second highest taught qualification - Masters is the highest... 

Fair enough - I thought a Masters had a research basis? 

Myranda

digitalscream said:

Myranda said:

Just a tiny point Batchelors is the second highest taught qualification - Masters is the highest... 

Fair enough - I thought a Masters had a research basis? 

You might do a lot of research for the dissertation... But it's still lectures, classes and coursework /exams for the most part

Sporky

Myranda said:

digitalscream said:

Myranda said:

Just a tiny point Batchelors is the second highest taught qualification - Masters is the highest... 

Fair enough - I thought a Masters had a research basis? 

You might do a lot of research for the dissertation... But it's still lectures, classes and coursework /exams for the most part

Also depends on the Masters. Mine was predominantly taught - it was the 4th year extension to my degree. I did a significant project as part of it but most was just like the BEng.

ToneControl

Fretwired said:

Myranda said:

But are they adult education courses?

Anyone can go on them and they're run in the daytime or evening. You might have to pay a fee, but it's not much.

Adult education is about giving skills to people who missed out at school - GCSEs and basic apprenticeships.

not many do A levels it seems:
https://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4126795

ToneControl

Sporky said:

Myranda said:

digitalscream said:

Myranda said:

Just a tiny point Batchelors is the second highest taught qualification - Masters is the highest... 

Fair enough - I thought a Masters had a research basis? 

You might do a lot of research for the dissertation... But it's still lectures, classes and coursework /exams for the most part

Also depends on the Masters. Mine was predominantly taught - it was the 4th year extension to my degree. I did a significant project as part of it but most was just like the BEng.

You can do a research-only master's, an M.Phil, possibly an M.Sc at some unis
Oxford and Cambridge (and Dublin?) give them for free with no extra work 3 years after the Bachelor's:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/7771288/Oxbridge-masters-degrees-offensive-says-Cambridge-don.html

Most common M.Sc. is a 3 or 4 month project with 8 months of teaching and exams

ToneControl

digitalscream said:

Snap said:

Should any higher education be free though? Debatable. There is a good argument to say that is in the interest of the country to eductate or train people as much as they want, and are able. On the other side, if its totally free, it can become devalued.

That's the irony - it was free, but it's only since fees were introduced that degrees have become devalued because there's a financial incentive for universities to get as many bums on seats as possible. Thus the entry requirements have dropped - I mean, I've seen degrees offered by our local college (in association with Anglia Ruskin) for which the only requirement was a single D at A-level, in any subject.

A single D, to me, is most definitely not an indication of aptitude suitable for the highest level of non-research-based qualification available.

My wife did one of those degrees (hers was Graphic Design), and the "education" they received was utterly awful. Most of the final work produced by the students was GCSE-level at best, yet almost all of them got 2:1s. Hell, I proof-read some of their final essays as a favour, and the writing was probably around the level of what I'd expect from a primary school leaver.

Leeds Met Uni have been accepting 2 x E

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/9545232/Students-win-degree-places-with-as-little-as-two-E-grades-at-A-level.html

ToneControl

Bloody stupid grade inflation continues

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-40654933