Alternate picking slowing down

stratman3142

RedRabbit said:

...It does seem that the downward pick slanting only really helps with certain licks though.  The Paul Gilbert lick doesn't benefit from it unless I start it with an upstroke (and that feels weird enough that it's actually slowing my down at the moment) ...

As I posted earlier, my pick is about vertical when I try to play that Paul Gilbert lick and I can't do it at speed without without 'swiping'. Hear what Troy Grady has to say about it at 2:36 in the video below.

bingefeller

@RedRabbit did you see any of the Yngwie videos on Troy's channel?  Yngwie and Eric use exactly the same picking techniques. 

RedRabbit

bingefeller said:

@RedRabbit did you see any of the Yngwie videos on Troy's channel?  Yngwie and Eric use exactly the same picking techniques. 

I did - I'm not a huge Yngwie fan though so was concentrating more on the EJ videos.  

I know there was some discussion of ways around the limitations of downward pick slanting for both styles.  At some point I'll have to go back and watch them again.  I think the next few weeks/months will see me focusing mainly on the mechanics though. 

digitalkettle

RedRabbit said:

I know there was some discussion of ways around the limitations of downward pick slanting for both styles.  At some point I'll have to go back and watch them again.  I think the next few weeks/months will see me focusing mainly on the mechanics though. 

So you have to bring in upward pick slanting as well to get over the limitations!

digitalkettle

bingefeller said:

digitalkettle said:

@DLM it's Guitar Pro 7

@digitalkettle how do you set up GP 7 like that? 

@bingefeller ; Somewhere in the stylesheet, I set something to 'jazz style' or somesuch...sorry for vagueness

I think I set most things to be jazzy...then changed an individual setting for the notation...back to a classic look as it was cleaner.

Was a while back...hit me up if you have any specific questions.

RedRabbit

digitalkettle said:

RedRabbit said:

I know there was some discussion of ways around the limitations of downward pick slanting for both styles.  At some point I'll have to go back and watch them again.  I think the next few weeks/months will see me focusing mainly on the mechanics though. 

So you have to bring in upward pick slanting as well to get over the limitations!

It looks like that's the ultimate goal but I think some of the Ynqwie and EJ strategies are worth studying before I cross that bridge.

digitalkettle

RedRabbit said:

It looks like that's the ultimate goal but I think some of the Ynqwie and EJ strategies are worth studying before I cross that bridge.

Absolutely...worked for them

Doesn't work for me though:
1. I play a lot slower
2. I don't like to be as organised...you can't accuse them of being 'licks' players but isn't it headed in that direction?

RedRabbit

digitalkettle said:

RedRabbit said:

It looks like that's the ultimate goal but I think some of the Ynqwie and EJ strategies are worth studying before I cross that bridge.

Absolutely...worked for them

Doesn't work for me though:
1. I play a lot slower
2. I don't like to be as organised...you can't accuse them of being 'licks' players but isn't it headed in that direction?

I have exactly the same concerns.  My main aim is to give myself as much freedom as I can so I do think being able to use downward and upward pick slanting is where I want to end up.

Getting comfortable with downward pick slanting seems like a fairly reasonable aim for the time being though.

Danji

@bingefeller I've been watching your video, if it's okay for me to comment, and feel free to ignore me, or tell me to do one.

During the picking, you're rushing the tempo. To get a line sounding fast and clean it has to be in time. If I could offer one piece of advice I would say take it down in tempo and try it with a clean tone.

bingefeller

Danji said:

@bingefeller I've been watching your video, if it's okay for me to comment, and feel free to ignore me, or tell me to do one.

During the picking, you're rushing the tempo. To get a line sounding fast and clean it has to be in time. If I could offer one piece of advice I would say take it down in tempo and try it with a clean tone.

Am I rushing the first or second one or both?  I'd like to know so I can address the problem..  cheers

Danji

They're both rushed, but it is easily done I'm continually checking my practice by recording and listening back as critically as possible.  I'm obsessed about time, which can be restrictive, I'm my own worst enemy. 

If you're interested I'll have a proper listen later and see if I can isolate the exact spots. Like I said, it's just my opinion though.  I wouldn't want to offend. 

stratman3142

bingefeller said:

Danji said:

@bingefeller I've been watching your video, if it's okay for me to comment, and feel free to ignore me, or tell me to do one.

During the picking, you're rushing the tempo. To get a line sounding fast and clean it has to be in time. If I could offer one piece of advice I would say take it down in tempo and try it with a clean tone.

Am I rushing the first or second one or both?  I'd like to know so I can address the problem..  cheers

Here's my opinion, and "opinions are like ..." as they say
 
Firstly I think it's good that you post stuff and stick your neck out and secondly I tend to do exactly the same thing, so I'm in no position to be judgemental.

My impression it that it's a bit rushed at the start of each exercise, then you start to move towards locking into the tempo as each exercise progresses.

I like to record myself as well and one way of objectively analysing this (which I use) is to record myself playing against a click track in a DAW, then zoom in and compare waveforms to see where the notes occur in relation to the click. It's easier with a cleaner sound. I often start slightly ahead of the click when trying something that's a bit demanding. It's as if I know it's going to be a challenge and over compensate at start.

bingefeller

Cheers guys.  I don't want to derail the thread but, yes the second attempt was sloppy because I just increased the tempo.  

I didn't think the first attempt was that off to be honest, maybe me thinking it was in time is part of the problem.  

@stratman3142 that's a good idea with the DAW, I'd never thought of that.  

Just talking about time makes me think, I have one of those Andy James packs, Diaries of Hell I think, and he's playing a solo  and he's playing it over and over again, trying to get it "in time".  Andy doesn't seem happy but the producer says that if it was any more "in time" it would start to sound like midi.  

Barney

I just done this tonight with quite a bit of alternate picking plus some legato to stuff as well...just a Mess really cos i got some new strings on...not sure iff I angle the pick or what I do ..?

stratman3142

I think the exercises posted on the 8th August are pretty good because they cover a range of challenges for me. I've incorporated them into my set of exercises. I definitely find Ex 3 easiest to play with the following left hand fingering.

http://i.imgur.com/86y27lS.png

Barney said:

I just done this tonight with quite a bit of alternate picking plus some legato to stuff as well...just a Mess really cos i got some new strings on...not sure iff I angle the pick or what I do ..?

Nice playing.

AxeInsight

bingefeller said:

Cheers guys.  I don't want to derail the thread but, yes the second attempt was sloppy because I just increased the tempo.  

I didn't think the first attempt was that off to be honest, maybe me thinking it was in time is part of the problem.  

@stratman3142 that's a good idea with the DAW, I'd never thought of that.  

Just talking about time makes me think, I have one of those Andy James packs, Diaries of Hell I think, and he's playing a solo  and he's playing it over and over again, trying to get it "in time".  Andy doesn't seem happy but the producer says that if it was any more "in time" it would start to sound like midi.  

Hi, I don't know if this thread is dead but I'm gonna act like it isn't. I'd really like a video of the stuff you were stuck on, that could help us pinpoint what's wrong.

For the Andy James stuff, yea he's pretty obsessed with cleanliness and timing, but that's why his playing is so great. By pushing for perfection he actually went further than almost everybody. Shooting for the stars is often a great strategy if you want to get good

bingefeller

AxeInsight said:

bingefeller said:

Cheers guys.  I don't want to derail the thread but, yes the second attempt was sloppy because I just increased the tempo.  

I didn't think the first attempt was that off to be honest, maybe me thinking it was in time is part of the problem.  

@stratman3142 that's a good idea with the DAW, I'd never thought of that.  

Just talking about time makes me think, I have one of those Andy James packs, Diaries of Hell I think, and he's playing a solo  and he's playing it over and over again, trying to get it "in time".  Andy doesn't seem happy but the producer says that if it was any more "in time" it would start to sound like midi.  

Hi, I don't know if this thread is dead but I'm gonna act like it isn't. I'd really like a video of the stuff you were stuck on, that could help us pinpoint what's wrong.

For the Andy James stuff, yea he's pretty obsessed with cleanliness and timing, but that's why his playing is so great. By pushing for perfection he actually went further than almost everybody. Shooting for the stars is often a great strategy if you want to get good

Cheers, I'm getting it sorted.  A friend is giving me some help with my string changing problems.  

RedRabbit

Well, its been a few weeks since I started this thread so I guess an update on my original issue might be appropriate. 

The slowing down issue seems to have resolved itself. I think part of it might have been me becoming more critical of how clean is was playing the exercises but I also think I'd started tensing up more as I approached the tempos I'd been struggling with. 

I've not gained a lot of speed on the exercises I posted.  Maybe a couple of BPM on the EJ and Paul Gilbert licks - the Queen lick has been temporarily abandoned as I look at other things.  I've been focusing on downward pick slanting and trying to incorporate at least some forearm rotation in my picking motion.  The later is proving harder to get to grips with than I thought it would be.  It's fine at slower speeds but as the tempo creeps up muscle memory kicks in and the wrist takes over. 

I also went back to the Claus Levin videos I've got. Still think he talks too much but he makes some interesting points about accents and chunking (not that he refers to it as such).

So, progress is being made and my playing, although not noticeably faster, seems more fluent. 

Probably the biggest thing for me is that its kept me picking up my guitar a couple of times a day which is something I wouldn't normally do during quiet periods with the band.

stratman3142

RedRabbit said:

I've not gained a lot of speed on the exercises I posted.  Maybe a couple of BPM on the EJ and Paul Gilbert licks - the Queen lick has been temporarily abandoned as I look at other things.  I've been focusing on downward pick slanting and trying to incorporate at least some forearm rotation in my picking motion.  The later is proving harder to get to grips with than I thought it would be.  It's fine at slower speeds but as the tempo creeps up muscle memory kicks in and the wrist takes over. 

I'm not sure that moving away from downward pick slanting and forearm rotation towards wrist motion is a bad thing at all. I subscribed to Troy Grady's excellent 'Masters Of Mechanics' for some time and have also purchased a number of his products such as the Primer Pack. 

Troy Grady isn't just about downward pick slanting. He covers a range of techniques and motion mechanics, including the upward pick slanting of John McLaughlin and the swooping technique (I can't remember exactly what he called it) of Steve Morse, two way pick slanting and swiping (i.e. not clearing the string). And often the lines that players use at very high speed are driven by the approach they use. Different players use different approaches. It's a case of what works for the individual.

RedRabbit

stratman3142 said:

RedRabbit said:

I've not gained a lot of speed on the exercises I posted.  Maybe a couple of BPM on the EJ and Paul Gilbert licks - the Queen lick has been temporarily abandoned as I look at other things.  I've been focusing on downward pick slanting and trying to incorporate at least some forearm rotation in my picking motion.  The later is proving harder to get to grips with than I thought it would be.  It's fine at slower speeds but as the tempo creeps up muscle memory kicks in and the wrist takes over. 

I'm not sure that moving away from downward pick slanting and forearm rotation towards wrist motion is a bad thing at all. I subscribed to Troy Grady's excellent 'Masters Of Mechanics' for some time and have also purchased a number of his products such as the Primer Pack.

Troy Grady isn't just about downward pick slanting. He covers a range of techniques and motion mechanics, including the upward pick slanting of John McLaughlin and the swooping technique (I can't remember exactly what he called it) of Steve Morse, two way pick slanting and swiping (i.e. not clearing the string). And often the lines that players use at very high speed are driven by the approach they use. Different players use different approaches. It's a case of what works for the individual.

I'm focusing on downward pick slanting for the time being as I was already doing it to a certain degree.  What I hadn't noticed previously is that as I move to the lower strings I tend to flatten the pick out, maybe even ending up with more of an upwards pick slant on the low E.  At the moment I'm just trying to maintain the pick angle more across the strings so things feel more consistent.  It helps that I'm a huge EJ fan so if I can get some of his licks under my fingers while I'm working on it I'll be happy.

The forearm rotation thing might be a dead end so I'm not pushing it to hard.  It just strikes me as being a more natural, efficient movement - at the very least a less tiring movement.

I'm thinking of getting Troy Grady's pick slanting primer pack and working through it so will look at upwards and two way pick slanting eventually.