Helix Native

dindude

Spent another hour with Native today. Basically just ran thorough some amps with nothing more than a hall reverb on them and tweaked the basic controls (didn't get into sag etc). Got a little
more out of it but all the things I said above stand, when I went to my amp for comparison I lost half an hour noodling away in blissful tone, then went back and "logged-out" within 2 minutes. It's pretty unfair really as I've spent the best part of 5 years getting my rig to where I want it amps and pedals wise.

Bottom line is that I haven't heard anything like enough to want to pour more time into it. 

guitarfishbay

When other people are doing comparisons, how are you handling the cabinet sim?

Personally I like to keep things as simple as possible so I'm using Ownhammer IRs regardless of what I'm using for the modeller. I think they're spot on for the cabs they're capturing, very well balanced and I've been using them for a while. I have most bases covered from small combos to 4x12, and have owned several of the cabs used and it all sounds like I'd expect...

I haven't been using the stock cabs in anything because I have no interest in learning that on top of how to get the best from the modelling. To my mind the modelling should work fine into the impulses I like. Plus it's one less variable (and a powerful/influential one at that)

Maybe I'm doing it wrong if everyone is using the stock cabs/cab sims in a given plugin and preferring those?

dindude

stratman3142 said:

dindude said:

stratman3142 said:

dindude said:

....Its the feel thing though, as you are playing and interacting with the modelling and FRFR vs amp and pedals that doesn't compute with me.

Regarding the 'feel' thing. What was the reported latency when you tried S-Gear and Helix Native? I find that too much latency can definitely affect the feel for me.

If it's something else, I wonder whether some players are more sensitive to these things than others and also whether it's something players can get used to. I haven't got Helix Native, but I have got a Helix LT and I'm fine with the feel. I'm also fine with ampsims such as S-Gear 2 and Amplitude Fender 2, which seem responsive to pick dynamics to me. However, I've played through ampsims for a very long time, and much more than through real amps in recent years. Maybe I'm just insensitive to things (that's what my wife would say).

I don't think it's the latency necessarily. I was trying to think last night what it was and I came to this conclusion.

The amps don't decay like they would in reality. You can be playing, say a low gain Vox model, for rhythm, get it sounding pretty good, that you know would be a real fight for single note lines but in the modelling amp you seem to have this sustain on the single notes that shouldn't be there, then an ubrupt end to it. This isn't added compression but built into the amp model.

Then there's just a hollowness to all of the sounds that can't be dialled out. My speakers won't help but I think it's a by product of FRFR....

Basically, it's all very impressive in some aspects, but ultimately it feels like what it is, playing through a computer.

@dindude ;;; I think you're a Robben Ford fan from what you said on another thread, so am I correct in guessing that you're into the clean to medium gain blues type tones. Have you tried Amplitube Fender 2? I think there might be free demo.

Firstly, I'd point out that I'm in no way associated with IK, even though I keep going on about the Fender 2 collection.

I've just been doing some comparisons of what I accept are fairly specific amp type tones, which were Fender bluesy clean to medium gain sounds. I was surprised how much I really did prefer some of the tones in Amplitube Fender 2 for that type of sound and feel. I was comparing it with S-Gear 2 and my Helix LT. My second favourite was S-Gear 2 but it was a quite a bit behind. I couldn't quite find what I was looking for with the Helix LT, but that might be down to inexperience on my part and I may need to spend more time on it.

However, what I've described is a type of tone that Amplitube Fender 2 focuses on, and I expect that S-Gear and Helix will win out for other types of tone and have greater versatility.

Yeah I guess my basic sound set is as follows:

Fender black-face clean, not too scooped but nice rounded "pretty" cleans with deep bass and a zing in the treble.

Hairy version of above, again not too scooped but the sort of sound you can really dig in with a Strat neck pickup.

Medium gain overdrive - fairly smooth but with a little grit behind the note, most importantly it has to be massively dynamic - with a Strat think Jeff Beck, with Humbuckers, yes a little more Robben Ford (in sound, not my playing unfortunately!).

Then for higher gain think thick, smooth but visceral, with an element of fuzz, but not outright fuzz - Gilmour on one hand, Neil Young on the other. 

Dynamics, dynamics, dynamics for me, to the point I have my amp set louder than I should and play softly to give enough headroom to make a single note pop when I want it.

I've found all modellers are like triggering a games controller compared to what I'm used to.

Will take a look at the Fender 2 if there is a free trial, thanks.

Jonathanthomas83

"Triggering a games controller"? What does that mean?

What you describe above @dindude sounds a lot like my ethos to tone.

You're pretty much blanket saying "all modellers" but you've not tried them all.

Can I ask a genuine question, what is it about these modellers or plugins that's making you try them out? Is there something there that you're looking for? Something that is lacking in your physical amp/pedal setup?

dindude

Jonathanthomas83 said:

"Triggering a games controller"? What does that mean?

What you describe above @dindude sounds a lot like my ethos to tone.

You're pretty much blanket saying "all modellers" but you've not tried them all.

Can I ask a genuine question, what is it about these modellers or plugins that's making you try them out? Is there something there that you're looking for? Something that is lacking in your physical amp/pedal setup?

The triggering phrase is poorly, erm, phrased, apologies. I mean I feel like the guitar becomes the games controler and you are mearly triggering notes and you lose the expressiveness that is everything I love about the guitar. I'm exaggerating to make a point, but it really is there for me. 

Of all the modellers ive tried I've felt the same, no I haven't tried them all, but I was excited to try Helix as it seems people are saying it's "next level" along with the Fractal stuff (which I haven't tried in anger, have heard it a few times and had little plays here and there), but I didn't hear the significant step up I was expecting. I honestly think I got better sounds out of my Digitech GSP1101 with IR's.

I'm certainly not looking to replace my amp and pedals, but I would like a headphone solution that inspires me and to easily record without mic'ing up as I have a young toddler at home now so evenings are out of bounds for volume playing. I'm also genuinely curious as to how many people on here have got Helix and ditched their amp and pedals - all those people can't be wrong, but I must be a freak because it's not even close tone wise, taking out the obvious convenience and the undoubted flexibility.

stratman3142

guitarfishbay said:

When other people are doing comparisons, how are you handling the cabinet sim?

Good point. I'm just using the stock cabs/sims. Maybe I haven't got the best out of the Helix yet.
btw. I'm assuming a Helix LT sounds identical to Helix Native. I'd be surprised if it didn't.

gibsongretschfan

dindude said:

stratman3142 said:

dindude said:

stratman3142 said:

dindude said:

....Its the feel thing though, as you are playing and interacting with the modelling and FRFR vs amp and pedals that doesn't compute with me.

Regarding the 'feel' thing. What was the reported latency when you tried S-Gear and Helix Native? I find that too much latency can definitely affect the feel for me.

If it's something else, I wonder whether some players are more sensitive to these things than others and also whether it's something players can get used to. I haven't got Helix Native, but I have got a Helix LT and I'm fine with the feel. I'm also fine with ampsims such as S-Gear 2 and Amplitude Fender 2, which seem responsive to pick dynamics to me. However, I've played through ampsims for a very long time, and much more than through real amps in recent years. Maybe I'm just insensitive to things (that's what my wife would say).

I don't think it's the latency necessarily. I was trying to think last night what it was and I came to this conclusion.

The amps don't decay like they would in reality. You can be playing, say a low gain Vox model, for rhythm, get it sounding pretty good, that you know would be a real fight for single note lines but in the modelling amp you seem to have this sustain on the single notes that shouldn't be there, then an ubrupt end to it. This isn't added compression but built into the amp model.

Then there's just a hollowness to all of the sounds that can't be dialled out. My speakers won't help but I think it's a by product of FRFR....

Basically, it's all very impressive in some aspects, but ultimately it feels like what it is, playing through a computer.

@dindude ;;; I think you're a Robben Ford fan from what you said on another thread, so am I correct in guessing that you're into the clean to medium gain blues type tones. Have you tried Amplitube Fender 2? I think there might be free demo.

Firstly, I'd point out that I'm in no way associated with IK, even though I keep going on about the Fender 2 collection.

I've just been doing some comparisons of what I accept are fairly specific amp type tones, which were Fender bluesy clean to medium gain sounds. I was surprised how much I really did prefer some of the tones in Amplitube Fender 2 for that type of sound and feel. I was comparing it with S-Gear 2 and my Helix LT. My second favourite was S-Gear 2 but it was a quite a bit behind. I couldn't quite find what I was looking for with the Helix LT, but that might be down to inexperience on my part and I may need to spend more time on it.

However, what I've described is a type of tone that Amplitube Fender 2 focuses on, and I expect that S-Gear and Helix will win out for other types of tone and have greater versatility.

Yeah I guess my basic sound set is as follows:

Fender black-face clean, not too scooped but nice rounded "pretty" cleans with deep bass and a zing in the treble.

Hairy version of above, again not too scooped but the sort of sound you can really dig in with a Strat neck pickup.

Medium gain overdrive - fairly smooth but with a little grit behind the note, most importantly it has to be massively dynamic - with a Strat think Jeff Beck, with Humbuckers, yes a little more Robben Ford (in sound, not my playing unfortunately!).

Then for higher gain think thick, smooth but visceral, with an element of fuzz, but not outright fuzz - Gilmour on one hand, Neil Young on the other. 

Dynamics, dynamics, dynamics for me, to the point I have my amp set louder than I should and play softly to give enough headroom to make a single note pop when I want it.

I've found all modellers are like triggering a games controller compared to what I'm used to.

Will take a look at the Fender 2 if there is a free trial, thanks.

You want the Litigator and download the free sample IR from Celestion. Add a 69 Spring reverb. Done 

stratman3142

gibsongretschfan said:

You want the Litigator and download the free sample IR from Celestion. Add a 69 Spring reverb. Done 

That's not bad at all. I assume you mean the 63' Spring reverb of the Helix. Thanks.
I think I might try a few more of these Celestion IRs.

Jonathanthomas83

dindude said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

"Triggering a games controller"? What does that mean?

What you describe above @dindude sounds a lot like my ethos to tone.

You're pretty much blanket saying "all modellers" but you've not tried them all.

Can I ask a genuine question, what is it about these modellers or plugins that's making you try them out? Is there something there that you're looking for? Something that is lacking in your physical amp/pedal setup?

The triggering phrase is poorly, erm, phrased, apologies. I mean I feel like the guitar becomes the games controler and you are mearly triggering notes and you lose the expressiveness that is everything I love about the guitar. I'm exaggerating to make a point, but it really is there for me. 

Of all the modellers ive tried I've felt the same, no I haven't tried them all, but I was excited to try Helix as it seems people are saying it's "next level" along with the Fractal stuff (which I haven't tried in anger, have heard it a few times and had little plays here and there), but I didn't hear the significant step up I was expecting. I honestly think I got better sounds out of my Digitech GSP1101 with IR's.

I'm certainly not looking to replace my amp and pedals, but I would like a headphone solution that inspires me and to easily record without mic'ing up as I have a young toddler at home now so evenings are out of bounds for volume playing. I'm also genuinely curious as to how many people on here have got Helix and ditched their amp and pedals - all those people can't be wrong, but I must be a freak because it's not even close tone wise, taking out the obvious convenience and the undoubted flexibility.

That's ok, just wondered what you meant that's all! :-)

It's such a subjective and divisive subject, isn't it?! Personally, it's the single best thing I've ever done since I started playing 19 years ago - switching to the Axe FX.

If you're ever near Cardiff, give me a shout, I'll happily show you around my setup. If you get an opportunity, hear it in all it's glory and then decide :-) 

gibsongretschfan

stratman3142 said:

gibsongretschfan said:

You want the Litigator and download the free sample IR from Celestion. Add a 69 Spring reverb. Done 

That's not bad at all. I assume you mean the 63' Spring reverb of the Helix. Thanks.
I think I might try a few more of these Celestion IRs.

Yeah that's the one.

the Celestion IR's are very easy on the ear

ruoma

@dindude I completely agree with everything you've said. And my suggestion for you, based on helix and load box experience (no kemper or axe) would be to build your own ISO cab and double wrap it in a flight case like the grossman boxes do, then buy a line out thingy from Suhr and use a celestion IR. 

Or, buy the suhr load box, which is good, but still not as good as a proper speaker as load. If you want, I could make you a clip of the differences. 

Or you could buy a two notes torpedo of course, although I did prefer the suhr based on Pete thorn's comparison demo. 

Also, I understand your video game comparison

Heartfeltdawn

Digital_Igloo said:

Something's fishy. I've been using both S-Gear and Helix Native all summer on a record and if you're hearing "awful", definitely check your input level. Your guitar tracks should stay in the green; that is, –18 ~ –36dB. Compensate with the output slider.

I'm fully conversant with input levels and suchlike.It's simply that I don't like how Native sounds. 

dindude

ruoma said:

@dindude I completely agree with everything you've said. And my suggestion for you, based on helix and load box experience (no kemper or axe) would be to build your own ISO cab and double wrap it in a flight case like the grossman boxes do, then buy a line out thingy from Suhr and use a celestion IR. 

Or, buy the suhr load box, which is good, but still not as good as a proper speaker as load. If you want, I could make you a clip of the differences. 

Or you could buy a two notes torpedo of course, although I did prefer the suhr based on Pete thorn's comparison demo. 

Also, I understand your video game comparison

Yeah, I'm not sure I'll go the full ISO route but I might get the Two Notes Captor (plus IR's) when it's finally in the shops, won't be perfect but it'll be a good compromise I reckon.

dindude

Jonathanthomas83 said:

dindude said:

Jonathanthomas83 said:

"Triggering a games controller"? What does that mean?

What you describe above @dindude sounds a lot like my ethos to tone.

You're pretty much blanket saying "all modellers" but you've not tried them all.

Can I ask a genuine question, what is it about these modellers or plugins that's making you try them out? Is there something there that you're looking for? Something that is lacking in your physical amp/pedal setup?

The triggering phrase is poorly, erm, phrased, apologies. I mean I feel like the guitar becomes the games controler and you are mearly triggering notes and you lose the expressiveness that is everything I love about the guitar. I'm exaggerating to make a point, but it really is there for me. 

Of all the modellers ive tried I've felt the same, no I haven't tried them all, but I was excited to try Helix as it seems people are saying it's "next level" along with the Fractal stuff (which I haven't tried in anger, have heard it a few times and had little plays here and there), but I didn't hear the significant step up I was expecting. I honestly think I got better sounds out of my Digitech GSP1101 with IR's.

I'm certainly not looking to replace my amp and pedals, but I would like a headphone solution that inspires me and to easily record without mic'ing up as I have a young toddler at home now so evenings are out of bounds for volume playing. I'm also genuinely curious as to how many people on here have got Helix and ditched their amp and pedals - all those people can't be wrong, but I must be a freak because it's not even close tone wise, taking out the obvious convenience and the undoubted flexibility.

That's ok, just wondered what you meant that's all! :-)

It's such a subjective and divisive subject, isn't it?! Personally, it's the single best thing I've ever done since I started playing 19 years ago - switching to the Axe FX.

If you're ever near Cardiff, give me a shout, I'll happily show you around my setup. If you get an opportunity, hear it in all it's glory and then decide :-) 

Thanks, that's a kind offer, not a regular to the area, but you never know where work takes me from time to time so I'll keep it in mind. I've been in the room with an axe fx on several occasions, but never heard it in a controlled listening environment.  

gibsongretschfan

Heartfeltdawn said:

Digital_Igloo said:

Something's fishy. I've been using both S-Gear and Helix Native all summer on a record and if you're hearing "awful", definitely check your input level. Your guitar tracks should stay in the green; that is, –18 ~ –36dB. Compensate with the output slider.

I'm fully conversant with input levels and suchlike.It's simply that I don't like how Native sounds. 

Wow, what a snidey bitch

nick79

My findings as a Helix newb after a week with native.. 
Initially i wasn't bowled over with much of the presets, to my ears i couldn't see much difference between it and Ampltube. I thought Helix effects were better, but the amps so so. 
It wasn't until i started making my own presets and really playing around that it started making sense, the Archon, 2204, JTM and recto are really good and i really like the Soupro and Hiwatt too.

Then today i played around with the Ownhammer IR's (the free ones) and boom, there it was. 
I put off buying an LT until i had tried Native, i've got 3 days left of the free trial and the way it's going i reckon i'll be getting one.

It is one hell of a learning curve though, and thats just using Native.

Teetonetal

dindude said:

ruoma said:

@dindude I completely agree with everything you've said. And my suggestion for you, based on helix and load box experience (no kemper or axe) would be to build your own ISO cab and double wrap it in a flight case like the grossman boxes do, then buy a line out thingy from Suhr and use a celestion IR. 

Or, buy the suhr load box, which is good, but still not as good as a proper speaker as load. If you want, I could make you a clip of the differences. 

Or you could buy a two notes torpedo of course, although I did prefer the suhr based on Pete thorn's comparison demo. 

Also, I understand your video game comparison

Yeah, I'm not sure I'll go the full ISO route but I might get the Two Notes Captor (plus IR's) when it's finally in the shops, won't be perfect but it'll be a good compromise I reckon.

I reckon you won't like it. That method sounds like a mic in front of an amp.  Very, very similar to a modeller.

I have the two notes torpedo and was using that for a while. To my ears helix is the same sound for much, much less faff.

I might be in a minority but the two notes impulses in wos3 are not as good as stock helix cabs.

digitalscream

Teetonetal said:

dindude said:

ruoma said:

@dindude I completely agree with everything you've said. And my suggestion for you, based on helix and load box experience (no kemper or axe) would be to build your own ISO cab and double wrap it in a flight case like the grossman boxes do, then buy a line out thingy from Suhr and use a celestion IR. 

Or, buy the suhr load box, which is good, but still not as good as a proper speaker as load. If you want, I could make you a clip of the differences. 

Or you could buy a two notes torpedo of course, although I did prefer the suhr based on Pete thorn's comparison demo. 

Also, I understand your video game comparison

Yeah, I'm not sure I'll go the full ISO route but I might get the Two Notes Captor (plus IR's) when it's finally in the shops, won't be perfect but it'll be a good compromise I reckon.

I reckon you won't like it. That method sounds like a mic in front of an amp.  Very, very similar to a modeller.

I have the two notes torpedo and was using that for a while. To my ears helix is the same sound for much, much less faff.

I might be in a minority but the two notes impulses in wos3 are not as good as stock helix cabs.

Exactly. I used my dummy loads to record both of my amps, sometimes in stereo, and I'm hearing very little difference between that and my Helix. The Helix, of course, wins by miles in the routing and effects department (not least because the gate in it is brilliant), and I don't miss anything about my hot, heavy amp rig.

Not only that, but I've got a lot more room in my office now. The amps are away in the corner, the Helix sits on my side desk and I don't need the board underneath. Also, no cable spaghetti.

guitarfishbay

digitalscream said:

Not only that, but I've got a lot more room in my office now. The amps are away in the corner, the Helix sits on my side desk and I don't need the board underneath. Also, no cable spaghetti.

This is as big a pro as any IMO.

When I had a bunch of cabs and amps there was no way to usefully set my room up at all, plus bloody cabling everywhere.

Now I've got zero cabs in the room and much more acoustic treatment... it's a huge amount better for everything relating to making music, especially tracking vocals which are a lot more important than guitar tone anyway. It's a calmer space too without the clutter.

Jonathanthomas83

digitalscream said:

Teetonetal said:

dindude said:

ruoma said:

@dindude I completely agree with everything you've said. And my suggestion for you, based on helix and load box experience (no kemper or axe) would be to build your own ISO cab and double wrap it in a flight case like the grossman boxes do, then buy a line out thingy from Suhr and use a celestion IR. 

Or, buy the suhr load box, which is good, but still not as good as a proper speaker as load. If you want, I could make you a clip of the differences. 

Or you could buy a two notes torpedo of course, although I did prefer the suhr based on Pete thorn's comparison demo. 

Also, I understand your video game comparison

Yeah, I'm not sure I'll go the full ISO route but I might get the Two Notes Captor (plus IR's) when it's finally in the shops, won't be perfect but it'll be a good compromise I reckon.

I reckon you won't like it. That method sounds like a mic in front of an amp.  Very, very similar to a modeller.

I have the two notes torpedo and was using that for a while. To my ears helix is the same sound for much, much less faff.

I might be in a minority but the two notes impulses in wos3 are not as good as stock helix cabs.

Exactly. I used my dummy loads to record both of my amps, sometimes in stereo, and I'm hearing very little difference between that and my Helix. The Helix, of course, wins by miles in the routing and effects department (not least because the gate in it is brilliant), and I don't miss anything about my hot, heavy amp rig.

Not only that, but I've got a lot more room in my office now. The amps are away in the corner, the Helix sits on my side desk and I don't need the board underneath. Also, no cable spaghetti.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who doesn't hear much difference between modelling and the load box approach. Topical indeed!