John Lewis has got rid of 'girls' and 'boys' labels in children's clothes.

Sporky

Drew_TNBD said:

BTW, is there a sauce on that drugs thing??

Lady BMcH - she was a biochemist. I'll see if I can get some useful references.

And I'd venture to suggest that something akin to positive discrimination is very much the answer here. Start doing drugs trials with both mixed and separate sex subjects so we can see if the drugs should be sold as more likely to work for one sex or both.

The one I remember is that ibuprofen works better for men than for women, and codeine works better for women than for men - as a broad average in both cases.

JezWynd

Thank God for C & A.

Nitefly

JezWynd said:

Thank God for C & A.

Crikey, that's an old one!

TimmyO

I don't see why the sizing "issue" will be an issue. They can/will just label stuff with some sequence (eg Size A - Size Z) then have a chart that shows that your 'average' 10yo girl is probably, say, a Size K and 'average' 10yo boy a Size M

You can still helpfully indicate size across one range of non-sexed clothes.

We've done the subconscious-sexism thing here a few times though so this conversation is unlikely to end constructively. 

digitalscream

TimmyO said:

I don't see why the sizing "issue" will be an issue. They can/will just label stuff with some sequence (eg Size A - Size Z) then have a chart that shows that your 'average' 10yo girl is probably, say, a Size K and 'average' 10yo boy a Size M

You can still helpfully indicate size across one range of non-sexed clothes.

We've done the subconscious-sexism thing here a few times though so this conversation is unlikely to end constructively. 

Which bit of "it's about the cut of the clothes, not just a size thing" did you miss? Even if you ignore the subtle differences between male and female body shapes, have you forgotten that boys have junk downstairs and girls have bumps up top?

I don't think "has room for a pecker" and "extra bagginess for boobs", while "helpfully indicating" the cut, would fit with their advertising ethos.

Clothing design is gender-specific by its very definition, whether you want to accept it or not, unless you just want extra-baggy clothes for everyone. It's nothing to do with sexism, and everything to do with actual biology.

Philly_Q

digitalscream said:

Clothing design is gender-specific by its very definition, whether you want to accept it or not, unless you just want extra-baggy clothes for everyone. It's nothing to do with sexism, and everything to do with actual biology.

Perhaps we'll all end up wearing featureless grey jumpsuits, like in all those old science fiction films which imagined the future as a place where everyone would be happy to look identical.

digitalscream

Philly_Q said:

digitalscream said:

Clothing design is gender-specific by its very definition, whether you want to accept it or not, unless you just want extra-baggy clothes for everyone. It's nothing to do with sexism, and everything to do with actual biology.

Perhaps we'll all end up wearing featureless grey jumpsuits, like in all those old science fiction films which imagined the future as a place where everyone would be happy to look identical.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? Even in Star Trek:TNG's hallowed gender-equal world, though, they had to make the male and female uniforms differently even though they looked identical. I wonder why.

musteatbrain

I can't understand why people don't see this as a really good thing. I'm really strongly in favour of John Lewis doing this and recognising the negative social impact companies have with their products. They need bring more pressure and sort out the toy market next. I've been pretty shocked lately to see how adults stereotyped views, conscious or not, have such a big influence on how kids think and act. So many companies do what is right for revenue and not what is right for society, missing a longer term opportunity to do both. Rant hat off.... Narcos series 3 back on

Drew_TNBD

musteatbrain said:

I can't understand why people don't see this as a really good thing. I'm really strongly in favour of John Lewis doing this and recognising the negative social impact companies have with their products. They need bring more pressure and sort out the toy market next. I've been pretty shocked lately to see how adults stereotyped views, conscious or not, have such a big influence on how kids think and act. So many companies do what is right for revenue and not what is right for society, missing a longer term opportunity to do both. Rant hat off.... Narcos series 3 back on

Well some of us don't see it as a negative social impact.

digitalscream

musteatbrain said:

I can't understand why people don't see this as a really good thing. I'm really strongly in favour of John Lewis doing this and recognising the negative social impact companies have with their products. They need bring more pressure and sort out the toy market next. I've been pretty shocked lately to see how adults stereotyped views, conscious or not, have such a big influence on how kids think and act. So many companies do what is right for revenue and not what is right for society, missing a longer term opportunity to do both. Rant hat off.... Narcos series 3 back on

Do you have kids?

How do you feel about going shopping for their clothes, and having to feel around the crotch of the trousers and pants to check whether it'll fit a boy or a girl in public?

Or, if you're a bit shy, how do you feel about buying some clothes for them online and then having a 50% chance of having to send it back because it's the wrong cut and your kid refuses to wear it because it's uncomfortable?

I can't believe that people are so stupid as to have reached an age where they're competent enough to get to a forum like this and yet still haven't noticed that girls and boys are different shapes, or at least not made the logical leap to "Maybe a different shaped body needs differently-shaped clothes".

Fucking mind-boggling.

Flink_Poyd

I don't buy clothes from John Lewis so they can do what they jolly well want. 

Sassafras

I've never admitted to being male or female on any forum and have changed my name to a gender neutral one because I was afraid people might think I was a pretentious fuckwit.

digitalscream

Sassafras said:

I've never admitted to being male or female on any forum and have changed my name to a gender neutral one because I was afraid people might think I was a pretentious fuckwit.

...I don't think that's their assumptions as to your gender

Drew_TNBD

Sassafras said:

I've never admitted to being male or female on any forum and have changed my name to a gender neutral one because I was afraid people might think I was a pretentious fuckwit.

I know your gender... it's douche!

Sassafras

Drew_TNBD said:

Sassafras said:

I've never admitted to being male or female on any forum and have changed my name to a gender neutral one because I was afraid people might think I was a pretentious fuckwit.

I know your gender... it's douche!

Isn't that French for Drew?

Sporky

digitalscream said:

have you forgotten that boys have junk downstairs and girls have bumps up top? .

Pants aside, to what age range does the John Lewis policy apply?

digitalscream

Sporky said:

digitalscream said:

have you forgotten that boys have junk downstairs and girls have bumps up top? .

Pants aside, to what age range does the John Lewis policy apply?

All ages up to 14.

Sporky

So for most of that range, girls won't be bumpy?

And you surely can't be claiming that all girls have exactly the same body shape, not that all boys do. So the question of fit still applies.

digitalscream

Sporky said:

So for most of that range, girls won't be bumpy?

True. It's a bit under half, on average - puberty begins between 8 and 12 for girls and 9 - 14 for boys.

Absolutely fine if it's only difficult to buy clothes for them for 2-6 years. Don't know what I'm complaining about, really. I'm sure parents won't be bothered at all. It's not just about the bumps, though. It's about the overall shape.

Believe it or not, I'm actually pretty happy about this. John Lewis are our main competitor for generic school clothes, so them committing commercial suicide in our sector is a proper bonus.

Sporky

Sorry - I added some stuff before I saw your reply.

Fit still varies so with or without this policy you still need to check things fit your individual kids anyway.