Body wood affects tone

Roland

andyp said:

Apologies @Roland if my comment above was less than helpful. I was just illustrating that the two sides will never meet and there's nothing can be presented to convince those of opposing views that they are "incorrect" or may want to reconsider their opinion.

Cheers,

Andy

Sorry Andy. That's the opposite of what I meant. I sited comments from yourself, @Sporky , @WezV , @impmann and @octatonic as complaints about trolling. It just goes to show how easy it is to write something ambiguous. 

Three-ColourSunburst

GSPBASSES said:

stop asking us what papers we've read on the subject get out in the real world and start feeling the wood.

Sorry, still laughing about this. 

https://i.stack.imgur.com/X9pmem.png

This seems to be one of the great things about this forum - people don't resort to bullying, abuse, accusing people of being 'trolls', 'taking their ball away to play elsewhere' and blocking those with a different viewpoint, and don't even mind sending themselves up. Instead we have real debate among open-minded individuals who welcome the challenge of converting others to their view point by the use of evidence and reason. So unlike most of the internet!

Sassafras

Instead of talking about it, why don't you go away and build the 'best' guitar in the world.

Three-ColourSunburst

Sassafras said:

Instead of talking about it, why don't you go away and build the 'best' guitar in the world.

Ah! The old 'Why don't you go and live in Russia' move. 

MartinB

Sassafras said:

Instead of talking about it, why don't you go away and build the 'best' guitar in the world.

The thing is, his methodology for building the best guitar in the world (9.20am) is very reminiscent of Ned Steinberger's approach in the late 70s and 80s.  Instruments built using that philosophy do have their adherents, but notably didn't make everything else obsolete.  Many players at the top of their game still prefer instruments built much using an intuitive approach much like GSPbasses describes, and I'm not about to dismiss them all as deluded fools.  It may not work for the reasons we think it works, but let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater...

Cirrus

I don't know why I thought of this really, but I've just been reminded of the circular room effect;

You can walk around while talking in a circular room, and everything will sound normal. If you thought about it at all, you wouldn't ask whether the room was robbing your voice of energy - it just sounds like a normal room.

And, if you never went and stood in the exact center of the room, you'd never realise how much a resonance can reinforce the sound you're making - but only in that one point where every reflection from the wall in all directions comes back and hits you at the same time. You might even be compelled to believe the room had somehow added some extra energy beyond what your voice was creating.

Corvus

Built this especially for 3SC this morning. Sounds awesome *

http://alleykat.co.uk/images/stuff/misc/diddly-bo.jpg

* I may be making that up

Sassafras

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Sassafras said:

Instead of talking about it, why don't you go away and build the 'best' guitar in the world.

Ah! The old 'Why don't you go and live in Russia' move. 

Well, you could if you wanted to but I was hinting more at the ridiculousness and futility of trying to build the 'BEST' guitar in the world. No such thing exists nor ever will as long as people have personal tastes.

crunchman

Three-ColourSunburst said:

An acoustic guitar is a very different kettle of fish, as the vibration of the soundboard and the air in the body do add a lot to the timbre, in fact they pretty much are the sound of an acoustic instrument. In contrast, the sound of electric guitar is, essentially, the sound of the string itself, coloured via the pickups, electronics, amp and so on.

I don't know why I'm bothering to repeat myself to answer you, but here goes.

An electric guitar that sounds dark unplugged (acoustically) sounds dark plugged in.  One that sounds bright unplugged sounds bright plugged in.

If it was just the string coloured by the pickups, electronics, amp then a 335 with PAFs would sound the same as a Les Paul with PAFs through the same amp.  It doesn't.

There are a lot of people here with a lot of experience, who have repeatedly explained facts like this to you and you are deliberately ignoring them.

Three-ColourSunburst

If it was just the string coloured by the pickups, electronics, amp then a 335 with PAFs would sound the same as a Les Paul with PAFs through the same amp.  It doesn't.

Not even the same wiring and pickups in these two guitars, one a Les Paul and another a 335. Each, inevitably, being played slightly differently each time, and I bet you couldn't reliably tell one from another in a blind test.

MartinB

At best, that video shows that in the particular contexts presented, the instruments can sound similar.  It's important not to mistake "can sound similar" for "can't sound different", as they are not equivalent statements. 

guitars4you

Three-ColourSunburst said:

If it was just the string coloured by the pickups, electronics, amp then a 335 with PAFs would sound the same as a Les Paul with PAFs through the same amp.  It doesn't.

Not even the same wiring and pickups in these two guitars, one a Les Paul and another a 335. Each, inevitably, being played slightly differently each time, and I bet you couldn't reliably tell one from another in a blind test.

In a blind fold test and I'm doing the playing I know for a fact that I could tell the difference and I'm sure most FB members could - And this is not me trying to cheat and find out the physical differences in the size of the body, or control/switch layout - so just on my touch, feel, response and tone I could tell a 335 over an LP and indeed bring an SG in to the equation as well - Ditto the same test on a Tele and Strat and to make it easier you can only select neck and bridge on the Strat, so again no cheating, by picking additional voices found on a Stat on position 2/3/4

Granted I could not always tell if it was recorded by an artist and I had to listen to it through an audio recording and speakers, as that takes away some of the feel and touch that I can put into the guitar, for the guitar then to in turn to support me and respond to me and my needs as I explore what it has to offer

crunchman

Somehow, @Three-ColourSunburst has convinced himself that a Les Paul and 335 sound the same.  OK use an ES-175 instead.  Same scale, pickups, and electronics as a Les Paul.  No-one with functioning ears will say they sound the same.

His statement that the sound is purely down to the strings, pickups, electronics, and amp is complete rubbish.  And so obviously rubbish, that I can only think he is trolling.  This is my last post in this thread.  It is getting pointless.

Sassafras

Three-ColourSunburst said:

If it was just the string coloured by the pickups, electronics, amp then a 335 with PAFs would sound the same as a Les Paul with PAFs through the same amp.  It doesn't.

Not even the same wiring and pickups in these two guitars, one a Les Paul and another a 335. Each, inevitably, being played slightly differently each time, and I bet you couldn't reliably tell one from another in a blind test.

All that proves is that youtube videos can't convey subtle differences.
Instead of reading dubious scientific papers, I suggest you get yourself down to a big guitar shop and try as many electrics as you can (unplugged of course).
You might learn something in real terms rather than reading about it.
I don't know about you but I play and listen to guitars before I read about them. I just find that's a more reliable indicator of how they sound.

Three-ColourSunburst

crunchman said:

His statement that the sound is purely down to the strings, pickups, electronics, and amp is complete rubbish.  And so obviously rubbish, that I can only think he is trolling. 

I do not think that it is 'trolling' to expect to be given a rigorous, scientifically valid explanation for claims such as these,

Solid basswood bodies have a fat, but well-balanced tonality. There’s a muscular midrange, but also a certain softness and breathiness. On a well-made guitar, basswood can yield good dynamics and definition with enough grind to give the sound some oomph.

http://www.guitarplayer.com/miscellaneous/1139/all-about-tonewoods/14591

Sorry, but claims that an explanation of claims such as those in the above article are beyond the reach of science that any scientific studies of the topic should be flushed "down the toilet where bullshit belongs", and that true understanding can only come from tapping and sniffing bits of raw wood doesn't cut it. As Marcello Truzzi put it,  "An extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof."

If my observations are so obviously 'rubbish', it amazes me that no one has come up with an academically credible explanation of how solid body, electric guitar 'tone wood' works. The academic press also seems to be devoid of any such explanation, which makes me think it is all a delusion.

As I said, I would love to see any evidence to the contrary. Ultimately it makes no difference to me one way or the other, and my income is certainly not dependent on believing in 'tone wood' and selling this belief to others.

Cheers!

Cirrus

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Not even the same wiring and pickups in these two guitars, one a Les Paul and another a 335. Each, inevitably, being played slightly differently each time, and I bet you couldn't reliably tell one from another in a blind test.

Can't you hear the extra level round, I'd guess, 400Hz* or so on the 335? I think I'd have a fair shot at a double blind just from listening for that - and this is a youtube vid over my little desktop speakers in my office. The 335 also has a bit less round 2.5kHz*, you can hear it as a kind of hollow space in the overdriven sounds. More subtle, but it's there.

*These are guesses going by ear, if I had an EQ to hand I'd find the exact ranges quickly enough.

Cirrus

MartinB said:

At best, that video shows that in the particular contexts presented, the instruments can sound similar.  It's important not to mistake "can sound similar" for "can't sound different", as they are not equivalent statements. 

Infinite wisdoms.

I once got a Vox AC100cph to sound the same as a Mesa Tremoverb, so I sold the Tremoverb thinking I'd got my bases covered.

Good lord, was I wrong. At those exact settings and fed a particular input, they sounded very similar. Anywhere else, they diverged hugely.

octatonic

Ravenous

Three-ColourSunburst said:

I do not think that it is 'trolling' to expect to be given a rigorous, scientifically valid explanation for claims such as these,

Solid basswood bodies have a fat, but well-balanced tonality. There’s a muscular midrange, but also a certain softness and breathiness. On a well-made guitar, basswood can yield good dynamics and definition with enough grind to give the sound some oomph.

http://www.guitarplayer.com/miscellaneous/1139/all-about-tonewoods/14591

Then go to the idiot who wrote that (it is marketing BS) and leave us alone.

I was going to point out some other replies on this thread that cover material that may be of interest, but I think you're now locked into a position from which you can't climb down, and you will not admit defeat.

I really do think you are related to Sir Axeman now. The propensity to believe youtube videos as if they're gospel is very familiar...

Megii

I had a similar argument to this with a friend about pickup magnets recently. He was asking about the pickups I'd had made for a guitar, and I talked a bit about the specs, including the type of alnico for the magnets, and how this influenced the tone. Anyhow, he said that the only thing the type of magnet could influence was the strength of the magnetic field, and thus the volume/output of the pickup - the tone balance, in his view could not be altered. I pointed him to various things on the internet, which were dismissed as marketing nonsense.

I talked about my own, admittedly subjective, experience of pickups, but he wanted a demonstration - basically I would have had to get two identical guitars and fit with pickups that were the same exact specs apart for the magnets to do this. As it happens I do have two guitars of the same model, but of course I wasn't going to go to the considerable trouble involved.

At some point he emails me a whole load of equations re the physics/ laws of magnetism, which he said proved his point - although he failed to explain how, and I don't think he really understood the equations all that well - it was just "science" to him, and in his view I was being unscientific. I stated that I was sure there was science behind what I said about pickups, but regretted my inability to  explain it myself, as a non-physicist. He starts demanding that I produce a scientific paper to prove my point...

Eventually, one realises that life's too short - I believe what I believe, and he believes what he does, and the best of luck to him. I said we'd just have to agree to differ - he seemed a bit annoyed with that - I think he wanted me to admit I was wrong spending money on replacement pickups - but agreed to leave the subject. I'm still not sure why he made such a big fuss about the whole thing though.