Body wood affects tone

professorben

Three-ColourSunburst said:

MartinB said:

Dude, a few posts ago you thought that a guitarist could play notes faster than the sound from their amplifier could reach them.  The lack of self-awareness is startling, and I'm still not sure if this thread is a wind-up. 

Jesus, I was just trying to throw in an obvious joke to try and keep things lighthearted and keep this thread from becoming a total lynch mob.

Perhaps those who have nothing better to say than 'You are talking bollocks' would be far happier if they didn't even look at the thread anymore and instead watched Chapper's 'proof' of tone wood video or something, if that brings them comfort.

I think this is a fascinating topic and I have really tried to find some credible research that might throw light on it. If this has challenged some peoples' faith in the magic of 'tone wood', tough, but I am just reporting - as best I can - on what I have found.

One way or another I have found this whole discussion to be enlightening, although I think I may have learned more about the way faith and magical thinking are impervious to reason (and about the mob-rule mentality of forums) than the definitive answer to the 'tone wood' debate. I was hoping that some with real expertise would comment on the papers I found. I guess that was too much to hope for!

Now, does anyone have anything constructive to add to the debate?

Cheers!

I agree with you mostly. 

professorben

Sassafras said:

guitars4you said:

I must admit @Three-ColourSunburst that I do admire your persistence - Many would have long gone by now - I have to admit that I've not read it all now, as it has started to get to long and I also have to admit that I'm not an academic, so many times a long report is a turn off for me and certain parts and words I don't understand - Maybe I'm a grumpy old git who won't change opinions anyway and/or maybe I believe in what my ears have told me for so long and with that in mind I don't really care about the scientific side - I don't know why or how my car works either, but I know I can drive it

Some of this reminds me of a story that Ron Dennis use to tell about Senna when they were both at McClaren - Apparently Senna had a good mechanical brain and understanding, as well as been a great driver and this helped them deliver a scientific process into a practical hands on performance - But the story concerns a Saturday and qualifying and Senna stating that on a certain corner, at a certain speed and rpm, there was a 'flat spot' - he felt it via the throttle and heard it - All the mechanical data did not pick it up and all the telepathy and system analysis showed no issues - So the night before the Grand Prix, R Dennis either had to back Senna or the mechanics, as both insisted they were right - So when they were all about to lock up for the night, Dennis insisted the mechanics stripped down the car and have a look and sure enough they found a mechanical issue - some flat spot or something and I'm sorry I can't recall what it was - But it showed that Senna could feel and hear what the electronic data could not detect and Dennis was right to back him

He wouldn't have been able to identify the problem if the engine had been made of maple or mahogany.

Totally ridiculous. 

Kingwood is best for Engines. 

Three-ColourSunburst

NelsonP said:

So where are the pukka, peer reviewed post grad studies? And what do they conclude? Do any of them look at the guitar/speaker interaction?

This is a very good point, and one I covered earlier. I have searched hard and the academic literature relating to 'tone wood' in solid-body electric guitars is notable by its absence, which is why I ended up looking for papers in other languages, turning up that paper from the specialist lutherie department at the university of Parana in Brazil.

I think a major reason for this lack of academic papers - despite the huge number written on almost every other aspect of musical instrument construction, musical perception and so on - is that the whole idea of 'tone woods' in relation to an electric guitar is so lacking credibility  to those with a proper understanding of the physics involved, that few supervisors would accept a research proposal on the topic.

I fully accept that solid body-guitars can have different 'feels', degrees of sustain and even sound different when played acoustically, largely because of differences in the wood used. They also sound differently when the signal from their pickups is amplified. However, it appears to be a mistake - albeit an understandable one - to link these two things together.

As I said earlier, it all reminds me of the way Eric Laithwaite destroyed his career and credibility by assuming the 'odd' properties of gyroscopes couldn't be explained in terms of normal physics. His knew 'something' interesting was going on and, for example, it does seem that a spinning flywheel that one can hardly hold out in front of oneself and yet feels almost weightless when spinning must have 'lost weight' or some such. However, in arguing exactly this to the point of it becoming an obsession - even an article of faith -  he simply demonstrated his incomplete understanding of the physics involved. The connections he drew were 'obvious' and almost irresistible but still wrong.

Here's Laithwaite again, 'the Rob Chapman of the gyroscope'.

Bridgehouse

It was raining at Peterborough train station.


This is conclusive evidence. Kay?

Sassafras

professorben said:

Sassafras said:

guitars4you said:

I must admit @Three-ColourSunburst that I do admire your persistence - Many would have long gone by now - I have to admit that I've not read it all now, as it has started to get to long and I also have to admit that I'm not an academic, so many times a long report is a turn off for me and certain parts and words I don't understand - Maybe I'm a grumpy old git who won't change opinions anyway and/or maybe I believe in what my ears have told me for so long and with that in mind I don't really care about the scientific side - I don't know why or how my car works either, but I know I can drive it

Some of this reminds me of a story that Ron Dennis use to tell about Senna when they were both at McClaren - Apparently Senna had a good mechanical brain and understanding, as well as been a great driver and this helped them deliver a scientific process into a practical hands on performance - But the story concerns a Saturday and qualifying and Senna stating that on a certain corner, at a certain speed and rpm, there was a 'flat spot' - he felt it via the throttle and heard it - All the mechanical data did not pick it up and all the telepathy and system analysis showed no issues - So the night before the Grand Prix, R Dennis either had to back Senna or the mechanics, as both insisted they were right - So when they were all about to lock up for the night, Dennis insisted the mechanics stripped down the car and have a look and sure enough they found a mechanical issue - some flat spot or something and I'm sorry I can't recall what it was - But it showed that Senna could feel and hear what the electronic data could not detect and Dennis was right to back him

He wouldn't have been able to identify the problem if the engine had been made of maple or mahogany.

Totally ridiculous. 

Kingwood is best for Engines. 

Haven't you been following, 'kingwood makes no 'king difference.

professorben

Bridgehouse said:

It was raining at Peterborough train station.


This is conclusive evidence. Kay?

It wasn't I was in the 'boro all day and I smelt no moist. 

Bridgehouse

professorben said:

Bridgehouse said:

It was raining at Peterborough train station.


This is conclusive evidence. Kay?

It wasn't I was in the 'boro all day and I smelt no moist. 

Bloody was at 7.00!!!! Flipping wet as it was.

lysander

@Three-ColourSunburst as it turns out I also find this subject very interesting, and as a scientist myself ( though admittedly my solid mechanics and acoustics are very rusty )  I am always both sceptical and curious.

However if you find this thread disappointing you can only blame yourself, you have dismissed a lot of reasonable arguments because of your own bias and have been generally just not listening and vastly overestimating your own knowledge and understanding, and been condescending to people who knew far more than you. 
So it's no surprise that his has turned into a joke thread and quite sad that you have pretty much ruined this discussion.

Three-ColourSunburst

Gassage said:

Lads, we're in danger of de-railing the thread.

Well, at least that's a more benign way for the tone wood faithful to attempt to close down the debate than some of the tactics that appear to have been used to try to silence the likes of William Gelvin.

professorben

Bridgehouse said:

professorben said:

Bridgehouse said:

It was raining at Peterborough train station.


This is conclusive evidence. Kay?

It wasn't I was in the 'boro all day and I smelt no moist. 

Bloody was at 7.00!!!! Flipping wet as it was.

Am or Pm???

I may have been in Slapding at 7am so possibly missed it, however I'm not going to accept that it was raining because in my mind it's always sunny in phil..... Peterborough. 

Sassafras

richardhomer said:

According to the theme song for Happy Days, Sir Bob is wrong....

Sir Bob is like 3csb, he's never wrong.

Bridgehouse

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Gassage said:

Lads, we're in danger of de-railing the thread.

Well, at least that's a more benign way for the tone wood faithful to attempt to close down the debate than some of the tactics that appear to have been used to try to silence the likes of William Gelvin.

I'm not a tone wood faithful. I play bass therefore if it was made out of concrete I doubt I'd notice the difference.

The derailing is purely and simply because this thread contains a higher nonsense content than that Trump taking off in a plane on a converyor belt from flat earth thread.

Bridgehouse

professorben said:

Bridgehouse said:

professorben said:

Bridgehouse said:

It was raining at Peterborough train station.


This is conclusive evidence. Kay?

It wasn't I was in the 'boro all day and I smelt no moist. 

Bloody was at 7.00!!!! Flipping wet as it was.

Am or Pm???

I may have been in Slapding at 7am so possibly missed it, however I'm not going to accept that it was raining because in my mind it's always sunny in phil..... Peterborough. 

PM.

Am now just north of Slapding in Crotchbeck and it's widdling it down

koneguitarist

A few questions to all.
1; if Ash is better than Alder why do some Ash Bodies sound better than others? Likewise Alder, Mahogany etc. 

2; we have all at one time been in a shop to try a new strat/tele/LP (insert your guitar of choice) and one always rings better than the others, sound more resonant etc. So if they are made from same wood is the difference in the species or rigidity of the wood that makes the difference?

3; if what makes a guitar resonate is down to the tone wood, why do guitars with various tremolos and/or fixed bridges not be consistent in which is best for transfer of energy? I have played some tele's with fixed string through body sound dead, and some top loader sound great. 

My only conclusion from some of the so called experts on here regarding guitars is that not one person truly has the answer, because there isn't one. The tone and resonance of a solid body electrical guitar is down to a wide combination of things, and each in isolation is small but combined make two identical guitars with same wood sound very different.
Any other so called proof (which I ain't seen yet after 40years of gigging and owning over a hundred guitars and having a guitar shop) is frankly a load of meaningless twaddle to put it politely. 
What 3TS has proven is so many of us myself included rely on our own ears and feel for an instrument. We can tell the difference, but we don't really know why.

Three-ColourSunburst

I see that William Gelvin's latest YouTube Video on 'Tone wood' has just been taken down. I would love to hear the back story as to why. I suspect 'The monkey lord' and 'The Captain' have been throwing their weight around again. Oh well, this is still available, a case of 'No zealot like a convert, perhaps.

Edit. It looks like Gelvin has taken down everything he has ever posted on YouTube.

koneguitarist

Three-ColourSunburst said:

I see that William Gelvin's latest YouTube Video on 'Tone wood' has just been taken down. I would love to hear the back story as to why. I suspect 'The monkey lord' and 'The Captain' have been throwing their weight around again. Oh well, this is still available, a case of 'No zealot like a convert, perhaps.

Pretty much what I said species of wood ie tone wood doesn't matter, only the construction and how it fits together. 

richardhomer

Just watched the second Coronation Street - looks like the wedding isn't going to take place.

Think I might have an early night....

Bridgehouse

richardhomer said:

Just watched the second Coronation Street - looks like the wedding isn't going to take place.

Think I might have an early night....

Tell us more... please, anything to break up the drivel...

GSPBASSES

What 3TS has proven is so many of us myself included rely on our own ears and feel for an instrument. We can tell the difference, but we don't really know why.

So what, it doesn't matter, we know what a guitar has to feel like and sound like so who gives a shit about the science.

I wish you had not ask the questions it's only going to start him off again!!!!!!!

It's not raining in Eastbourne been a nice sunny day, Although it's going to rain on me shortly as I'm just about to have a shower.

koneguitarist

GSPBASSES said:

What 3TS has proven is so many of us myself included rely on our own ears and feel for an instrument. We can tell the difference, but we don't really know why.

So what, it doesn't matter, we know what a guitar has to feel like and sound like so who gives a shit about the science.

I wish you had not ask the questions it's only going to start him off again!!!!!!!

It's not raining in Eastbourne been a nice sunny day, Although it's going to rain on me shortly as I'm just about to have a shower.

I agree, the science does not matter, what matters is how we perceive the guitar and whether it makes the tone we want. 
What I didn't really agree with is, all this attacking one person for what' initially is a quite interesting question to debate. I love wood, and its true some just seems to resonate more than others but why I don't know or care, but i do care if it resonates as it invariably sounds better in my book.