Body wood affects tone

guitars4you

EricTheWeary said:

Three-ColourSunburst said:

guitars4you said:

 I did mean xylophone - and the point I was trying to make and I could have used a pair of claves as a reference as well, is that certain woods have a musical tone to it and others don't

Or one could just make a great sounding xylophone using glass-fibre or other composite for the keys. I can see this opening up a whole new world for the cork-sniffers. Think of all the debate one could have about 'tone resin'.

http://bergerault.com/de/produkte/schlagzeuginstrumente/xylophon/performer-serie/xpc40-composite-xylophone-performer-4

There are brass instruments now being made out plastic. I'm pretty sure an experienced brass listener can tell the difference but they work and work well and a plastic trumpet is probably better than an equivalently priced brass one. Once you take tradition and expectations out of this it opens up a lot of possibilities. 

What I find a bit odd in the tone wood thing is that I don't think Fender, Gibson, et al ever chose the woods they did because of how they sounded. No reason at all to suggest that there aren't better alternatives out there. 

my dad is an ex-pro muso - clarinet and sax - They've made plastic clarinets for years and at a student level they perform very well - But guess which they like the tone of - I've heard my dad many times in the old shop been given a blind test on wood v plastic and he always got it right - its about the tone and harmonic overtones - somehow just sounds more pleasing

As Carlsberg state 'for those that can tell the difference'

AustrianJohn

guitars4you said:

Final comment about those who think the tone of wood is  a load of hype - An orchestral glockenspiel is just a few pieces of wood that are tuned to a pitch and you hit them with a wood beater - About as simple as it gets in some ways - Yet if wood was not important to the tone why don't they just use plastic or carbon composites - In short even a good orchestral glockenspiel requires the right ingredients to maximise the tone

I've tried to bite my tongue, but can't hold back any longer.

When you hear an orchestral glockenspiel, you hear one bit of wood hitting another bit of wood. End of story. So the main thing that effects the tone is the wood.

When you hear an electric guitar, what you hear is affected by the strings, the plectrum, how the player plays, the nut, the pickups, effects pedals used, the amplifier, and ... oh, yes ... the wood that the guitar is built from.

If you heard an electric guitar being played at a gig without seeing the guitar, could you really tell me what type of wood it was made from?

I'm not saying that wood doesn't affect a guitar's tone - but I think it's pretty insignificant along with all of the other factors.

bobliefeld

Unless your pickups are microphonic the acoustic sound of an electric guitar doesn't directly influence the plugged in sound.  Likewise a bit of wood sounding "resonant" or whatever when you tap it has no direct bearing on the sound of the guitar plugged in.  

A lot of great guitars use no wood at all, no one talks about "tone grade aluminium" tho.

Three-ColourSunburst

EricTheWeary said:

There are brass instruments now being made out plastic. I'm pretty sure an experienced brass listener can tell the difference but they work and work well and a plastic trumpet is probably better than an equivalently priced brass one. Once you take tradition and expectations out of this it opens up a lot of possibilities.

That's a good analogy, and given equal construction standards (so ensuring good intonation and so on) I would bet that, even if an experienced player could tell a brass and plastic trumpet apart, they would both be deemed to sound good - and surprisingly alike - especially if one does not have the advantage of being able to 'hear with one's eyes'. (Take a look at the video below.)

The main reason for this similarity is that, in both cases, one is essentially listening to a vibrating column of air. Similarly, with an electric guitar what one is listening to, via the pickups, is a vibrating metal string. Fundamentally, a vibrating metal string is a vibrating metal string, is a vibrating metal string, the characteristics of which are independent of what it is attached to. (Just as a vibrating column of air is a vibrating column of air, be it in a metal or plastic tube.) 

A string will vibrate with a fundamental frequency and a numerous higher-order harmonics - dependent on its length, mass and tension, and those harmonics can be influenced by the way the string is picked and where it is picked along the string length. However, once the basic mix of fundamental and harmonics is established, that's is - the body of the guitar cannot add anything to the harmonics of the string and thereby affect the tone produced. (Naturally the pickups can vary in their responsiveness to the various harmonics, and the amp can add other harmonic overtones.)

So, how could the wood of a guitar, or its construction, conceivably affect the tone of an electric guitar? From what I have read, the claims of the tone-wood believers seem to hinge on the claim that it is possible to selectively damp certain harmonics as the energy of the string decays. However, if this is even possible - and the evidence suggests otherwise - it would seem likely to have a very marginal effect.

For example, such secondary damping would seem to be of minor significance, with most of the decay of a string being due to the resistance of the air it moves and internal losses within the string. Further, the higher harmonics will always decay more quickly than the lower ones. Yes, one 'system' might have a more rapid rate of decay than another, but this would be likely to affect the energy of the string as a whole, not certain selective harmonic frequencies.

Three-ColourSunburst

AustrianJohn said:

If you heard an electric guitar being played at a gig without seeing the guitar, could you really tell me what type of wood it was made from?

WezV

bobliefeld said:

Unless your pickups are microphonic the acoustic sound of an electric guitar doesn't directly influence the plugged in sound.  Likewise a bit of wood sounding "resonant" or whatever when you tap it has no direct bearing on the sound of the guitar plugged in.  

The vibration of the string (as sensed by the pickup)  is affected by the wood and the method its attached to that wood.  A string is not vibrating in isolation.   PIckups are sensing the vibration of a string, but they are also vibrating themselves to a greater or lesser degree depending on the mounting method.   The tone you hear is the vibration of a string within a vibrating magnetic field

bobliefeld said:

A lot of great guitars use no wood at all, no one talks about "tone grade aluminium" tho.

they should, its not excluded form the system that makes up the whole.  It will affect the way the string vibrates just the same, and more predictably than wood assuming the grade of aluminium is consistent

Three-ColourSunburst

guitars4you said:

I don't understand the physics behind it all and to be honest I don't care - I use my ears

How do you ensure that you aren't influenced by what you believe to be true (confirmation bias) and avoid the possibility of 'hearing with your eyes'. ?

WezV

Three-ColourSunburst said:

AustrianJohn said:

If you heard an electric guitar being played at a gig without seeing the guitar, could you really tell me what type of wood it was made from?

No - you could guess the style though and they may hint at the wood used.   There are many other factors that combine to give you the difference.

When you are able to identify a strat from a les paul you are identifying a change in scale length and pickups first as they are much bigger factors in the overall sound.  It does not mean wood is not a factor

octatonic

Seems that those of us who build instruments are all pretty much saying the same thing in slightly different ways.

WezV

octatonic said:

Seems that those of us who build instruments are all pretty much saying the same thing in slightly different ways.

I think so

i fully accept the generalisations are misused by many buyers due to years of marketing BS

Sassafras

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Sassafras said:

Considering no 2 pieces of wood are exactly the same, these kinds of experiments are unlikely to convince any person one way or the other.
Personally, different types of wood do make subtle differences to the sound. It's not just down to pickups.

If the variations between two different bits of wood can be so great that no generalisations can be made regarding the supposedly intrinsic qualities of all bits of wood of a given species, then that in itself greatly undermines the claim that each species has a unique, significant and recognisable effect on tone.

The keyword here is 'subtle'.

octatonic

WezV said:

octatonic said:

Seems that those of us who build instruments are all pretty much saying the same thing in slightly different ways.

I think so

i fully accept the generalisations are misused by many buyers due to years of marketing BS

That is partly why I am the fly in the ointment when it comes to this stuff- it bugs me that science and engineering principles have been hijacked to sell a lifestyle.
I shouldn't let it bother me so much but I can't help it.

Three-ColourSunburst

Sassafras said:

The keyword here is 'subtle'.

  As subtle as the difference made by turning down the tone pot half a notch, maybe?

Three-ColourSunburst

WezV said:

The vibration of the string (as sensed by the pickup) is affected by the wood and the method its attached to that wood.  A string is not vibrating in isolation.  

From my understanding a vibrating string is a vibrating string, the characteristics of its vibration being determined entirely by its tension, length, mass and the exact way in which it is picked. If anyone knows any physics showing otherwise I would love to read it.

bobliefeld

WezV said:

bobliefeld said:

Unless your pickups are microphonic the acoustic sound of an electric guitar doesn't directly influence the plugged in sound.  Likewise a bit of wood sounding "resonant" or whatever when you tap it has no direct bearing on the sound of the guitar plugged in.  

The vibration of the string (as sensed by the pickup)  is affected by the wood and the method its attached to that wood.  A string is not vibrating in isolation.   PIckups are sensing the vibration of a string, but they are also vibrating themselves to a greater or lesser degree depending on the mounting method.   The tone you hear is the vibration of a string within a vibrating magnetic field

bobliefeld said:

A lot of great guitars use no wood at all, no one talks about "tone grade aluminium" tho.

they should, its not excluded form the system that makes up the whole.  It will affect the way the string vibrates just the same, and more predictably than wood assuming the grade of aluminium is consistent

Thas why I say "directly", my friend.  The wood influences string vibration which the pickup..picks up but, you know, once a guitar is plugged in there's so many other factors that unless it's a particularly bad bit of wood it's not that big a deal.

Ravenous

Three-ColourSunburst said:

From my understanding a vibrating string is a vibrating string, the characteristics of its vibration being determined entirely by its tension, length, mass and the exact way in which it is picked. If anyone knows any physics showing otherwise I would love to read it.

If I built a "guitar" from a huge box section of cast iron or steel, would it sound the same as an unplugged electric guitar?

(Damping of the material definitely makes a difference, in other words.  And we could add more complicated cases of damping but that'll do for now.)

MartinB

Three-ColourSunburst said:

Also the classical world is even more conservative than that of the electric guitar, despite the fact that alternative materials can be used with no impact on tone, as with the use of carbon fibre to make bows.

There are a lot of opinions among bowed instrument players about the tone of carbon fibre bows.  That hasn't stopped them from becoming popular, but I'd say that the statement "no impact on tone" would be about as contentious as it is in the guitar world. 

EricTheWeary said:

What I find a bit odd in the tone wood thing is that I don't think Fender, Gibson, et al ever chose the woods they did because of how they sounded. No reason at all to suggest that there aren't better alternatives out there. 

I do wonder if Gibson might have considered the impact of their wood choices on solid bodies.  Les Paul had certainly experimented with materials in his own right prior to his relationship with Gibson, and the maple cap on the early Gibson Les Paul models must have been for some reason other than appearance, given that they were painted gold. 

guitars4you

Three-ColourSunburst said:

guitars4you said:

I don't understand the physics behind it all and to be honest I don't care - I use my ears

How do you ensure that you aren't influenced by what you believe to be true (confirmation bias) and avoid the possibility of 'hearing with your eyes'. ?

I'm influenced by what I hear, feel and play - I agree many differences are subtle and the whole tone of the guitar is the sum of the parts - Yes it is a case of marginal gains, yet Sky Cycling win many races with this principle - Is a £1000 guitar twice as good as a £500 guitar ?, or indeed 2K v 1K or whatever you wish to pay - The point is that generally it is better, with diminishing returns as you spend even more - Some will always want to spend more, no matter what commodity it is and others won't or can't

I'm spoilt as I see, sell and play many fine guitars guitars on a regular basis and have done so for many years - I regularly comment that the best guitar in the world does not exists as we all have different opinions as to what constitutes that criteria - As a matter of interest I can't recall the last time I plugged an electric guitar into an amp when I purchased that guitar for myself - If it doesn't play right at the first contact point and have some acoustic vibrant qualities then it is not for me - we can all test drive guitars in different ways and lord knows I've seen and heard many variations over the years

I feel that my ability to discuss such issues is probably better done when I have a number of guitars in front of myself and an audience, be it you on your own, or with 2/3/4 colleagues, as against trying to write about it, with my limited knowledge of both the English language and indeed the physical understanding of what is actually happening - That way we can hear, chat and discuss accordingly - I'm sure many builders on here can often here something when they have a raw piece of wood with them but can't always explain the theory behind what the ears hear

I also feel that there are many arguments and/or discussions that can't be won or opinions changed for whatever reason, but I still believe that the quality of the wood has an impact on the tone - I agree we can't measure what % amount that is, but I'm not asking anyone to - For me personally if I like it then I will buy it and many customers adopt a similar policy - In the store on more than a few occasions I have sent back a new guitar, to the supplier, because after that 10/20 second initial test drive it sounds dead and I don't believe my customers would buy such a guitar

My comments on this blog are not based on me trying to earn a living and get all and sundry to buy only expensive guitars they are based on my thoughts as a guitar player and guitar enthsiast like most other FB members

Kalimna

If this discussion was to be posted on a luthiery forum (and I have seen it several times over at MIMF), the overwhelming opinion of builders is that it is almost impossible to generalise about specific species and their effect on the tone of an electrified guitar. There is sometimes more variation between different trees of the same species as there are between different species themselves. That's not to say that the piece of wood has no effect, more that you cant generalise, especially with imprecise terms such as dark/bright/woody/full/etc. A luthier takes a piece of wood, assesses it and builds the instrument around it. A pickup winder could do the same.

Of course wood influences the tone, but perhaps the *idea* of which wood it is influences just as much as the actual wood itself - a sort of guitar placebo effect. Unfortunately human senses are fairly poor at accurately identifying things from observations (be that sound, sight, feel etc) and whilst we honestly believe we can 'know' a difference, a whole host of psychological experiments prove otherwise. It's not a criticism, but the truth. The classic example of the gorilla-suited man on the basketball 'game' for instance, or, to take one from a more musical background, one of the talks at a luthiery conference reported in American Lutherie (I forget which edition) started off with a chap playing a violin behind a screen and the audience was asked about the tone. Overall very complimentary, even when the violin was shown to be made of balsa, not a well known tonewood!

Anyway, Im away to start a horse-chestnut mini-strat build. I'll see how I get on!

Adam

impmann

Three-ColourSunburst said:

WezV said:

The vibration of the string (as sensed by the pickup) is affected by the wood and the method its attached to that wood.  A string is not vibrating in isolation.  

From my understanding a vibrating string is a vibrating string, the characteristics of its vibration being determined entirely by its tension, length, mass and the exact way in which it is picked. If anyone knows any physics showing otherwise I would love to read it.

OK - so a Les Paul sounds identical to a Telecaster fitted with the same pickups, yes? A 335 sounds identical to a Les Paul? A Strat sounds identical to a Jazzmaster if you fit the same pickups? Of course they don't.

There is a feedback that is created by the string's vibration being absorbed by the material it is suspended by and then that energy is fed back into the string to create different overtones. Different bridges, bodies, nut material etc all make minute changes to the overall sound of the guitar. These overtones can also affect the sustain characteristics - see other thread.

Plus unless you are talking about EMGs, all pickups are slightly microphonic - so yes there will be an element of this creeping into the overall sound. After all - look at how many people prefer the sound of their pickups directly mounted to the body (EVH, Kotzen etc).