Fender amps why the love??

ICBM

Plectrum said:

Except that they weren't truly Fender-designed circuits. Fender used a circuit published by one of the valve manufacturers. Ken Bran and Dudley Craven recognised this when they had that one chance to look inside a Bassman.

Not true. Fender *originally* used RCA circuits - for things like the early Champs - but by the time they got to the Bassman it had evolved out of all recognition and was very much a Fender-designed circuit.

Ken Bran and Dudley Craven didn't have just one chance to look inside a Bassman - they copied the circuit exactly. Every component value is identical, the only difference is the OT ratio which was because it was an off-the-shelf transformer designed for 16 ohms not 2. Even given that, they did not change the NFB resistor to compensate, with the result that the Marshall has about three times as much and sounds quite different. So I wouldn't give them too much credit for understanding how it worked!

ThorpyFX

The princeton is a thing of absolute genius. love that amp. possibly one of the most incredible classic guitar sounds available.... and people like @RiftAmps add their special sauce to the design with such skill that the things become heavenly.

crunchman

ICBM said:

professorben said:

Another aspect is that my favourite amp brand thus far (Mesa Boogie) started life as a guy modding old Fender combos, so I figured that there must be a heritage in there somewhere in the tones I do like. 

There is, but Mesa/Boogies very quickly became something very different. The only Mesa that's really Fender-like is the Boogie MkI, and only on the low-gain input. After that, even though their marketing claimed that they could do Fender sounds on their clean channel, they really couldn't - they're much tighter, bolder, middier and darker even though they are still capable of loud strictly clean sounds.

I just can't get on with Mesa/Boogies (whichever name they use).  The cleans are just lifeless.

I don't over much like the compressed gain sounds they come out with either.

I tried one the Lonestars when they first came out, but I think I could get better sounds out of a Peavey Bandit and save a fortune in the process.

Bucket

professorben said:

koneguitarist said:

Try a Tweed Deluxe, or a SF Vibrolux, or better still try a SF Princeton or Deluxe reverb, all classic amps. 

I think I did try a Princeton. 
Is it a 1x12 sorta 15w combo??

1x10, 12 watts I think.

When you crank one up, it sounds wonderful. See 4:35.

professorben

crunchman said:

ICBM said:

professorben said:

Another aspect is that my favourite amp brand thus far (Mesa Boogie) started life as a guy modding old Fender combos, so I figured that there must be a heritage in there somewhere in the tones I do like. 

There is, but Mesa/Boogies very quickly became something very different. The only Mesa that's really Fender-like is the Boogie MkI, and only on the low-gain input. After that, even though their marketing claimed that they could do Fender sounds on their clean channel, they really couldn't - they're much tighter, bolder, middier and darker even though they are still capable of loud strictly clean sounds.

I just can't get on with Mesa/Boogies (whichever name they use).  The cleans are just lifeless.

I don't over much like the compressed gain sounds they come out with either.

I tried one the Lonestars when they first came out, but I think I could get better sounds out of a Peavey Bandit and save a fortune in the process.

The Mesa Engineering and Mesa/Boogie are very different sounding Amps. 

As Icbm said earlier one takes its heritage from BF fenders and one is more Bassman (like I know what that means lol) 

I know that Boogies take a great deal of dialling in, and the control settings are very counter intuitive if coming from a Marshall background at least. 

My settings on my Boogie are
Gain 7
Bass 1
Mid 2
Treble 7-8
Then there is a post gain 5 band slider eq that I have in a deep V setting. 

My eyes tell me this should be all hiss and no middle but its fat, full and strident, the cleans are sparkling and crisp but not biting, the gain channel is absolutely huge sounding and very tight. 

Its not a gain sound to bash out jangle pop/rock but for tight aggressive riff driven music it's absolutely ideal. 

I dont get the over compressed tag that at that a lot of people hang on Boogie gain tones either? 
I have a great deal of gain and even boost the front end with a drive pedal, but the harder I hit the guitar the harder it hits back, I can palm mute and shake the floor or wind the volume back and arpeggiate chords.

In fact it's the perfect amp drive tone. 

professorben

ThorpyFX said:

The princeton is a thing of absolute genius. love that amp. possibly one of the most incredible classic guitar sounds available.... and people like @RiftAmps add their special sauce to the design with such skill that the things become heavenly.

I thought it sounded ok with a BD-2w in the front, I'll admit it's the best sound I've had out of a Fender but I could see it absolutely disappearing in a band mix, not enough mids. 

jpfamps

Plectrum said:

dindude said:

Has it already been mentioned that the two other major food groups of amp, I.e. Marshall and Mesa both grew up as Fender based circuits.

Except that they weren't truly Fender-designed circuits. Fender used a circuit published by one of the valve manufacturers. Ken Bran and Dudley Craven recognised this when they had that one chance to look inside a Bassman.

That information is completely wrong.

There are plenty of Fender designed circuits; when Leo owned the company they brought out new amps every year.

In fact most people don't realize just how many amp models Fender developed in the pre-CBS era.

A good example is the tone stack used in virtually every amp since the 60's which was developed by Fender.

The very first TV front Bassman was indeed copied from application notes, but this was very quickly superseded after a couple of years of production, probably because it didn't sound very good.

The 5F6A copied by Marshall is very different from the first Bassman. There were at least 4 up dates of the circuit from the TV front to the 5F6A.

Gassage

I hve found this thread very interesting as it reveals that one man's drink is another man's poison big time.

Now, I'm not taking the moral clean signal high ground here, but my route to finding amps I like is basically the clean. If the clean is great, then I can sort everything else and make it dirty.

If it's shite I can't make it sound good clean, and for me, all the sounds I want are in the clean-breakup range (with the occasional drive pedal.)

@jpfamps - I have a book on Fender's amp developments. In the preface it notes the book is 250 pages long and it jokes that if Leo had used all of the prototypes that didn't make it into productiuon, it would have filled those 250 pages alone.

The thing is, when is a circuit a new circuit? Half of Leo's ideas were evolutions rather than revolutions*



(* I'll do it before someone else does- the only amp thing that truly was a revolution was the Vibratone....see, Leslie joke done.)

jpfamps

Gassage said:

I hve found this thread very interesting as it reveals that one man's drink is another man's poison big time.

Now, I'm not taking the moral clean signal high ground here, but my route to finding amps I like is basically the clean. If the clean is great, then I can sort everything else and make it dirty.

If it's shite I can't make it sound good clean, and for me, all the sounds I want are in the clean-breakup range (with the occasional drive pedal.)

@jpfamps - I have a book on Fender's amp developments. In the preface it notes the book is 250 pages long and it jokes that if Leo had used all of the prototypes that didn't make it into productiuon, it would have filled those 250 pages alone.

The thing is, when is a circuit a new circuit? Half of Leo's ideas were evolutions rather than revolutions*



(* I'll do it before someone else does- the only amp thing that truly was a revolution was the Vibratone....see, Leslie joke done.)

Indeed, the Fender amps were constantly evolving.

Leo was an inveterate tinkerer.

Regarding electronic circuits, well they are all generally evolved from previous circuits.

A triode or transistor only has 3 terminals, and so there are a very limited number of ways they can be wired and actually do anything useful, so all electronic circuits (not just valve amps!) have common circuit elements.

If you look at the schematics of the first Bassman and the 5F6A, the 5F6A has clearly evolved a long way from its origins.

professorben

Gassage said:

I hve found this thread very interesting as it reveals that one man's drink is another man's poison big time.

Now, I'm not taking the moral clean signal high ground here, but my route to finding amps I like is basically the clean. If the clean is great, then I can sort everything else and make it dirty.

If it's shite I can't make it sound good clean, and for me, all the sounds I want are in the clean-breakup range (with the occasional drive pedal.)

@jpfamps - I have a book on Fender's amp developments. In the preface it notes the book is 250 pages long and it jokes that if Leo had used all of the prototypes that didn't make it into productiuon, it would have filled those 250 pages alone.

The thing is, when is a circuit a new circuit? Half of Leo's ideas were evolutions rather than revolutions*



(* I'll do it before someone else does- the only amp thing that truly was a revolution was the Vibratone....see, Leslie joke done.)

Very interesting. 
Amps live and die by the drive sound for me. 

if an amp has a killer drive and a terrible clean I'd prefer that over an 'ok' drive and a stunning clean. 

I do use clean tones, but I'd say 90/10 split, so it doesn't make sense to worry about the clean tones so much. 

professorben

Here you go @Gassage ;
A band I really like, guitarist uses a vintage 70's HiWatt head set Clean with lots of pedals. 

Just like Davy G 

Gassage

professorben said:

Here you go @Gassage ;;
A band I really like, guitarist uses a vintage 70's HiWatt head set Clean with lots of pedals. 

Just like Davy G 

Ben, interestingly you can hear the Hiwatt mids and seperation there, the two things that define a Watt.

Teetonetal

I must say, I've never tried a cranked Princeton, Really must.
I think though that Fender and Metal / hard Rock do not really marry up in my head. I think of fender as Clean, pedal platform and Blues.

RiftAmps

Gassage said:

I hve found this thread very interesting as it reveals that one man's drink is another man's poison big time.

Now, I'm not taking the moral clean signal high ground here, but my route to finding amps I like is basically the clean. If the clean is great, then I can sort everything else and make it dirty.

If it's shite I can't make it sound good clean, and for me, all the sounds I want are in the clean-breakup range (with the occasional drive pedal.)

I completely agree with @Gassage here (first time for everything eh James?!)

The overdrive characteristics of an amplifier are the consequence of its clean tone, not the other way around. This also explains why I rarely like the sound of amplifiers developed after 1980. 

Teetonetal

professorben said:

Gassage said:

I hve found this thread very interesting as it reveals that one man's drink is another man's poison big time.

Now, I'm not taking the moral clean signal high ground here, but my route to finding amps I like is basically the clean. If the clean is great, then I can sort everything else and make it dirty.

If it's shite I can't make it sound good clean, and for me, all the sounds I want are in the clean-breakup range (with the occasional drive pedal.)

@jpfamps - I have a book on Fender's amp developments. In the preface it notes the book is 250 pages long and it jokes that if Leo had used all of the prototypes that didn't make it into productiuon, it would have filled those 250 pages alone.

The thing is, when is a circuit a new circuit? Half of Leo's ideas were evolutions rather than revolutions*



(* I'll do it before someone else does- the only amp thing that truly was a revolution was the Vibratone....see, Leslie joke done.)

Very interesting. 
Amps live and die by the drive sound for me. 

if an amp has a killer drive and a terrible clean I'd prefer that over an 'ok' drive and a stunning clean. 

I do use clean tones, but I'd say 90/10 split, so it doesn't make sense to worry about the clean tones so much. 

Same for me, I don't enjoy trying to find the drive sound I want from a pedal. I need the amp to have it up front. I very, very rarely play completely clean and if I do, I have an amp for that sound. 

Bucket

professorben said:

Here you go @Gassage ;;
A band I really like, guitarist uses a vintage 70's HiWatt head set Clean with lots of pedals. 

Just like Davy G 

(Moon Tooth)

Had never heard of these before but now I'm checking them out - enjoying it. Thanks!

Singer's voice is the only thing I'm not sure about...

Danny1969

I tried a whole load of combos out in PMT a few months ago, I tried Orange Rocker , Blackstar ID's,  Laney something or othe,  Fender Bass breaker, Fender HRD and a Princeton. The Princeton had the best tone to my ears and also sounded like the largest amp .... which was odd cos size wise it was the smallest. Too much money for me though

For classic rock it's all about the dirt sound for me, which is why I've always used Marshall's and more recently Blackstars. The cleans aren't great but you tend to use a backed off clean sound from the volume control rather than needing a pristine clean voicing
For everything other that classic rock I prefer Fender cleans backed up with pedals 

Gassage

If you're playing classic rock, I totally get the Marshall thing.

bbill335

Teetonetal said:

I must say, I've never tried a cranked Princeton, Really must.
I think though that Fender and Metal / hard Rock do not really marry up in my head. I think of fender as Clean, pedal platform and Blues.

I think the 100w Bassman head is very similar to the Sunn Model T (the doom/stoner amp that isn't vintage orange/matamp)

professorben

Gassage said:

If you're playing classic rock, I totally get the Marshall thing.

Them's fighting words James!!!!!