How are acoustics set up from the factory

NelsonP

Nearly every acoustic I've ever played seems to have an action that is too high. particularly at the bridge.
Maybe I've missed something but is there a good reason for this?

Or, put another way, is there anything that should stop me getting the action lowered at the bridge on my acoustic.

CloudNine

They are high from the factory to allow adjustment to where you want it. Easier to reduce saddle height. Raising height properly means new a saddle.

Lots of fingerpickers and bluegrass players like action pretty high.

Nothing to stop you lowering it though. Sometimes lose something in tone and volume with acoustics though. There is a certain amount of height the strings need to be from the top to give the torque needed to get the top moving. Unfortunately, you will only know you have gone too far with lowering, when it's too late to easily resolve it.

For me it's best to wrestle with a slightly higher action, and ensure tone is preserved.

Lewy

CloudNine said:

There is a certain amount of height the strings need to be from the top to give the torque needed to get the top moving. Unfortunately, you will only know you have gone too far with lowering, when it's too late to easily resolve it.

For me it's best to wrestle with a slightly higher action, and ensure tone is preserved.

 Very generally speaking, the optimum string height off the soundboard, right in front of the bridge, is 1/2”. Below 3/8” is not desirable (and would probably feel pretty weird from a picking hand position anyway). 

CloudNine

Indeed. It's a great measurement to do when looking at purchasing an acoustic, particularly older ones which might in theory be heading towards needing a neck rest. Saddle height and string break angle tells you nothing really about the neck angle, as bridges often get shaved etc.

Jez6345789

Acoustic guitar setup

Both my Taylor Koa Mini and the Cort Adirondack 000 all had very high break angles on the bridge. 

I lowered the Cort and it plays fine on 12's 

I have left the Taylor at its cheese grater level which is virtually unplayable with 12's and my arthritic hands for more than about 30 mins but I have been loathed to lower it as I know you lose a bit of volume but frankly I worry I will lose the tone it has, which is amazing it just sounds like a really expensive produced guitar sound miked up  its with a little of the internal and a decent reverb pluging and it is a very pro studio sound thats sits lovely in a mix.

So if there are any acoustic experts if I bring the bridge down on the Taylor will it screw the tone badly or is it just volume. 

regards jez

ICBM

Jez6345789 said:

So if there are any acoustic experts if I bring the bridge down on the Taylor will it screw the tone badly or is it just volume. 

Unfortunately very hard to tell without trying it. If it's ludicrously high it won't, but there will be a fairly sharp cut-off where the tone drops off if you go too low.

Jez6345789

cheers might be a case of giving it a slight adjustment and seeing.

kt66

I've had a couple of saddles shaved to lower action, it lowers break angle too of course, but I must admit I have not heard
a big difference in tone or volume, guitars are 1989 Sigma 12 string and Guild JF65 6 string. 
Could the importance of break angle be overstated? 

I must admit the high action of seemingly every acoustic I see in a shop just puts me off having a go or enquiring further.
I don't see why guitar companies just can't set them at recommended levels, and they don't the shops could. 
If I sold or made guitars I'd want them as playable in the shop as possible. 

richardhomer

kt66 said:

I've had a couple of saddles shaved to lower action, it lowers break angle too of course, but I must admit I have not heard
a big difference in tone or volume, guitars are 1989 Sigma 12 string and Guild JF65 6 string. 
Could the importance of break angle be overstated? 

The physics around this is fairly simple - the main energy produced by a vibrating string is at right-angles to the top - so the higher the saddle is, the more the string drives the top.

On older guitars, where string tension has caused the action to become too high (sometimes due to the top bellying excessively - sometimes due to deformation of the soundbox over time) - it is common to see the saddle lowered dramatically. Sometimes the top of the bridge is planed to facilitate this. Beyond a certain point - this is always a bodge - volume is inevitably compromised as a result.

The only ‘correct’ fix is to reset the angle of the neck, to allow bridge height to be maintained, while allowing a playable action. I follow Norm’s Rare Guitars on Instagram. They posted a picture the other day of four vintage Martins in their workshop with their necks off - all were having resets.

Lewy

kt66 said:

I've had a couple of saddles shaved to lower action, it lowers break angle too of course, but I must admit I have not heard
a big difference in tone or volume, guitars are 1989 Sigma 12 string and Guild JF65 6 string. 
Could the importance of break angle be overstated? 

I must admit the high action of seemingly every acoustic I see in a shop just puts me off having a go or enquiring further.
I don't see why guitar companies just can't set them at recommended levels, and they don't the shops could. 
If I sold or made guitars I'd want them as playable in the shop as possible. 

In and of itself, the importance of break angle is often overstated. Technically, there’s nothing to be gained by having more than “enough” - that being enough to ensure the string is exerting firm downward pressure on the saddle. If you can’t move the string around on top of the saddle when it’s tuned to pitch, you have enough break angle. 

But...the chances are if it’s low then your other key geometry could be off too, namely string height off the top, so break angle has become something of a shorthand for all of that.

I’m not a habitual guitar shop tryer-outer but my experiences tend to be that there are some manufacturers that do go for in-store playability (like Taylor and L’arrivee) and others that don’t bother so much (namely Martin and Gibson). 

As a buyer, knowing that you’re going to need a proper set up in the first year anyway once the top has settled into its belly, I’m probably quite content that a needless set up hasn’t been included in the costs of the guitar.

There are notable exceptions, but generally set ups done by the retailer aren’t the best when it comes to acoustics. I dread to think what most retailers’ idea of a “this’ll make this guitar sell” set up might be...action too low at the saddle, probably too much relief so even cack handed suitors don’t get buzzes etc. 

ICBM

kt66 said:

I must admit the high action of seemingly every acoustic I see in a shop just puts me off having a go or enquiring further.
I don't see why guitar companies just can't set them at recommended levels, and they don't the shops could. 
If I sold or made guitars I'd want them as playable in the shop as possible. 

Because wood - especially in a hollow, highly-stressed and only just strong enough construction - is not a stable material, and very much so when it has only just been dried, cut, shaped and made into something. And even more so when it's going to be sent somewhere with different climate conditions to the factory.

It would be possible to make them more accurately at the factory, but they would most likely still not be right once they've been in a shop for a few weeks or months having been in a shipping container and a warehouse on the way.

It's true that the shops should probably be setting them up better, but many don't want to alter a new instrument until a customer wants to buy it - they can quite easily move again, and in any case different customers like different set-ups. Any shop that won't set up a guitar properly as the buyer wants at the point of sale isn't doing their job though.

Sassafras

It's a lot easier to take the action down than raising it.

kt66

I have to disagree, it's easy to raise a saddle or bridge, there is only so much you can shave off, add in belly bulge and from experience lowering action is much harder.

ICBM

kt66 said:

I have to disagree, it's easy to raise a saddle or bridge, there is only so much you can shave off, add in belly bulge and from experience lowering action is much harder.

I think Sassafras is talking about a new guitar where there isn't a problem with the neck angle or top bellying.

It's normal to leave the bridge saddle too high from the factory exactly because it is much easier to lower it than raise it.

NelsonP

Ok. Thanks folks.  So,  assuming I wanted someone to take a look at lowering the action,  any tips on how would I might someone that really knows what they are doing?

Lewy

NelsonP said:

Ok. Thanks folks.  So,  assuming I wanted someone to take a look at lowering the action,  any tips on how would I might someone that really knows what they are doing?

Personal recommendation is the way to go. Where are you based?

I'm sad to say I've only ever had poor experiences of getting acoustic work done by stores in-house people, even very well respected ones. Their experience tends to be shaped by getting lower end electro-acoustics to play more like electrics and they really don't spend a lot of time thinking about how what they are doing affects the acoustic potential of the instrument. That's fine for a lot of players, by the way - exactly what they want in many cases so it's not really a dig at the people doing the work. But it's a bit more nuanced than that.

earwighoney

Jez6345789 said:

I have left the Taylor at its cheese grater level which is virtually unplayable with 12's and my arthritic hands for more than about 30 mins but I have been loathed to lower it as I know you lose a bit of volume but frankly I worry I will lose the tone it has

There are a number of factors that might need to be addressed, presuming you haven't already being the string height at the nut - Taylors have TUSQ nuts which are factory made and might need lowering.  Then there's the relief, and finally the string height at the saddle.  

Finally if you have arthritic hands then you really must purchase a set of Newtone Heritage strings - they are low tension strings 

https://www.newtonestrings.com/shop/heritage-series-acoustic-6-string/

NelsonP

Lewy said:

NelsonP said:

Ok. Thanks folks.  So,  assuming I wanted someone to take a look at lowering the action,  any tips on how would I might someone that really knows what they are doing?

Personal recommendation is the way to go. Where are you based?

I'm sad to say I've only ever had poor experiences of getting acoustic work done by stores in-house people, even very well respected ones. Their experience tends to be shaped by getting lower end electro-acoustics to play more like electrics and they really don't spend a lot of time thinking about how what they are doing affects the acoustic potential of the instrument. That's fine for a lot of players, by the way - exactly what they want in many cases so it's not really a dig at the people doing the work. But it's a bit more nuanced than that.

I'm in South Bucks. Happy to take any recommendations in that area!

My acoustic is a Taylor and is definitely set up on the high side. It hadn't occurred to me that lowering the action might impact on tone so the advice on here is great. Also clear that you can't just hand your acoustic guitar over to any old tech.

richardhomer

NelsonP said:

My acoustic is a Taylor and is definitely set up on the high side. It hadn't occurred to me that lowering the action might impact on tone so the advice on here is great. Also clear that you can't just hand your acoustic guitar over to any old tech.

The great thing about a Taylor is their necks are bolted on, meaning altering the angle is much easier/less labour-intensive than on a traditional glued joint. Still needs to be done by someone who knows what they’re doing - but not major surgery like it would be on more traditional guitars.

Lewy

NelsonP said:

Lewy said:

NelsonP said:

Ok. Thanks folks.  So,  assuming I wanted someone to take a look at lowering the action,  any tips on how would I might someone that really knows what they are doing?

Personal recommendation is the way to go. Where are you based?

I'm sad to say I've only ever had poor experiences of getting acoustic work done by stores in-house people, even very well respected ones. Their experience tends to be shaped by getting lower end electro-acoustics to play more like electrics and they really don't spend a lot of time thinking about how what they are doing affects the acoustic potential of the instrument. That's fine for a lot of players, by the way - exactly what they want in many cases so it's not really a dig at the people doing the work. But it's a bit more nuanced than that.

I'm in South Bucks. Happy to take any recommendations in that area!

My acoustic is a Taylor and is definitely set up on the high side. It hadn't occurred to me that lowering the action might impact on tone so the advice on here is great. Also clear that you can't just hand your acoustic guitar over to any old tech.

Mark Willmott is your guy. 

http://www.markwillmottguitars.com/
 info@markwillmottguitars.com

His website is a mess but I know lots of people from the Wycombe area who swear by his work.

Also, not a million miles away in Oxford is Dave Smart of Smart Guitars. He's done work for me that I've been happy with. 

Moominpapa

I just took my Yamaha FG830 in to the Yamaha store in London to get the warranty service done. I bought it in January this year and although I really liked the sound of the guitar I had been struggling with the string height and tension. The slightest drop in pressure from my fretting finger would immediately cause a nasty metallic buzz. I should have it set up months ago but I was just too lazy to haul it into London and back. But today I got my act together and  asked the tech at the store (Steve, nice guy, happy to explain everything he's going to do) to lower the action, put on lighter strings (11-52) and he also flattened the neck relief a little. The difference in playability is amazing - and it still sounds great: no loss of tone.