57 Les Paul TV on e bay

guitars4you

Limehouse_Blues said:

guitars4you said:

Limehouse_Blues said:

Assuming the manufacturer headstock logo is original it would also require a declaration to be made on export to the US fish and wildlife service for mother of pearl and the exporter would likely require a wildlife export license from FWS. This is a domestic US requirement unrelated to CITES.

Limehouse_Blues said:

Fedexing to yourself without CITES docs is a dumb idea. Shields the dealer from liability but exposes the buyer to potential criminal liability in 2 countries.

If hand carrying a vintage piece you still need CITES export / import docs for dalbergia nigra because it is Appendix 1. And the FWS declaration for mother of pearl (if any in the guitar).

The export/import CITES docs are not ‘Art 10’ certificates. Art 10 refers to the certificate needed for subsequent commercial use after import into EU.

In the USA don't wildlife and fisheries handle both the MOP and rosewood issues ?

I had forgotten about the MOP issue, but if you take it out of the USA as your 'own' guitar does this application still apply ?

Furthermore I'm still under the thought pattern that the article 10 is required to get it into the EU - best to check with authorities first on this if thinking of such an under taking

Just goes to show the uncertainty and mess it has all become - I know so many 'dealers' who no longer buy via the USA for this reason 

Animal and Plant Health Agency (APHA)

Telephone: 0117 372 3700 | Email: wildlife.licensing@apha.gsi.gov.uk

Website: www.gov.uk/apha | Twitter: @APHAgovuk | Facebook: aphagov

Address: UK CITES Management Authority, Centre for International Trade - Bristol

Horizon House, Deanery Road, Bristol, BS1 5AH 

If a guitar has both MOP and d.nigra then USFWS do the export checks at one of their designated ports. If the guitar only contains d.nigra (no MOP) then export checks are done by a APHIS (a branch of the US Dept of Agriculture)

In the EU reg Art 10 is the provision under which certificates for export/re-export and commercial use are issued. Import is all dealt with under Art 4.

after an impromptu trip to Nashville recently I’m mid way through this process and waiting for an import permit now. Once successfully navigated I’ll write something up as it may be helpful for others looking to navigate the process.

That will be great for all - it is a mess

I hear stories from the USA that Brazilian Rosewood can only enter/leave certain airports - Not sure if this is sent as goods via courier and/or you taking as your belongings (even if recently purchased)

Limehouse_Blues

guitars4you said:

Limehouse_Blues said:

guitars4you said:

Limehouse_Blues said:

Assuming the manufacturer headstock logo is original it would also require a declaration to be made on export to the US fish and wildlife service for mother of pearl and the exporter would likely require a wildlife export license from FWS. This is a domestic US requirement unrelated to CITES.

Limehouse_Blues said:

Fedexing to yourself without CITES docs is a dumb idea. Shields the dealer from liability but exposes the buyer to potential criminal liability in 2 countries.

If hand carrying a vintage piece you still need CITES export / import docs for dalbergia nigra because it is Appendix 1. And the FWS declaration for mother of pearl (if any in the guitar).

The export/import CITES docs are not ‘Art 10’ certificates. Art 10 refers to the certificate needed for subsequent commercial use after import into EU.

In the USA don't wildlife and fisheries handle both the MOP and rosewood issues ?

I had forgotten about the MOP issue, but if you take it out of the USA as your 'own' guitar does this application still apply ?

Furthermore I'm still under the thought pattern that the article 10 is required to get it into the EU - best to check with authorities first on this if thinking of such an under taking

Just goes to show the uncertainty and mess it has all become - I know so many 'dealers' who no longer buy via the USA for this reason 

Animal and Plant Health Agency (APHA)

Telephone: 0117 372 3700 | Email: wildlife.licensing@apha.gsi.gov.uk

Website: www.gov.uk/apha | Twitter: @APHAgovuk | Facebook: aphagov

Address: UK CITES Management Authority, Centre for International Trade - Bristol

Horizon House, Deanery Road, Bristol, BS1 5AH 

If a guitar has both MOP and d.nigra then USFWS do the export checks at one of their designated ports. If the guitar only contains d.nigra (no MOP) then export checks are done by a APHIS (a branch of the US Dept of Agriculture)

In the EU reg Art 10 is the provision under which certificates for export/re-export and commercial use are issued. Import is all dealt with under Art 4.

after an impromptu trip to Nashville recently I’m mid way through this process and waiting for an import permit now. Once successfully navigated I’ll write something up as it may be helpful for others looking to navigate the process.

That will be great for all - it is a mess

I hear stories from the USA that Brazilian Rosewood can only enter/leave certain airports - Not sure if this is sent as goods via courier and/or you taking as your belongings (even if recently purchased)

You’re right about designated ports and the requirement to move through a designated port applies equally if hand carrying with CITES docs. There are also separate lists of designated port (the USDA list for plant only export and the FWS list for anything containing MOP though there is overlap between the lists). BA start a direct service to Nashville next year but as far as I’m aware Nashville is on neither list (Memphis and Atlanta are but only the latter has direct transatlantic passenger flights).

While the EU’s domestic commercial use restriction is peculiar, it’s my impression that the US side of the export/import process is actually more confusing than at the EU end.

guitars4you

Limehouse_Blues said:

guitars4you said:

Limehouse_Blues said:

guitars4you said:

Limehouse_Blues said:

Assuming the manufacturer headstock logo is original it would also require a declaration to be made on export to the US fish and wildlife service for mother of pearl and the exporter would likely require a wildlife export license from FWS. This is a domestic US requirement unrelated to CITES.

Limehouse_Blues said:

Fedexing to yourself without CITES docs is a dumb idea. Shields the dealer from liability but exposes the buyer to potential criminal liability in 2 countries.

If hand carrying a vintage piece you still need CITES export / import docs for dalbergia nigra because it is Appendix 1. And the FWS declaration for mother of pearl (if any in the guitar).

The export/import CITES docs are not ‘Art 10’ certificates. Art 10 refers to the certificate needed for subsequent commercial use after import into EU.

In the USA don't wildlife and fisheries handle both the MOP and rosewood issues ?

I had forgotten about the MOP issue, but if you take it out of the USA as your 'own' guitar does this application still apply ?

Furthermore I'm still under the thought pattern that the article 10 is required to get it into the EU - best to check with authorities first on this if thinking of such an under taking

Just goes to show the uncertainty and mess it has all become - I know so many 'dealers' who no longer buy via the USA for this reason 

Animal and Plant Health Agency (APHA)

Telephone: 0117 372 3700 | Email: wildlife.licensing@apha.gsi.gov.uk

Website: www.gov.uk/apha | Twitter: @APHAgovuk | Facebook: aphagov

Address: UK CITES Management Authority, Centre for International Trade - Bristol

Horizon House, Deanery Road, Bristol, BS1 5AH 

If a guitar has both MOP and d.nigra then USFWS do the export checks at one of their designated ports. If the guitar only contains d.nigra (no MOP) then export checks are done by a APHIS (a branch of the US Dept of Agriculture)

In the EU reg Art 10 is the provision under which certificates for export/re-export and commercial use are issued. Import is all dealt with under Art 4.

after an impromptu trip to Nashville recently I’m mid way through this process and waiting for an import permit now. Once successfully navigated I’ll write something up as it may be helpful for others looking to navigate the process.

That will be great for all - it is a mess

I hear stories from the USA that Brazilian Rosewood can only enter/leave certain airports - Not sure if this is sent as goods via courier and/or you taking as your belongings (even if recently purchased)

You’re right about designated ports and the requirement to move through a designated port applies equally if hand carrying with CITES docs. There are also separate lists of designated port (the USDA list for plant only export and the FWS list for anything containing MOP though there is overlap between the lists). BA start a direct service to Nashville next year but as far as I’m aware Nashville is on neither list (Memphis and Atlanta are but only the latter has direct transatlantic passenger flights).

While the EU’s domestic commercial use restriction is peculiar, it’s my impression that the US side of the export/import process is actually more confusing than at the EU end.

confusion takes place for many (private or business) and I know the guitar trade in all major countries are in talks with CITES, both about ease of use and even an exemption based on low usage of new rosewood (compared to other trades) along with the whole used market place - CITES have admitted they did not know a used market place existed - A number of meetings have taken place - what will happen and when will be known soon

It is the confusion that is so much of an issue to the point that many just won't bother buying/selling over custom borders due to the hassle involved

I know with an appropriate article 10 certificate it is okay to buy/sell an old guitar, providing it arrived in the UK/EU before 1992 - I'm unclear as to you will be granted an article 10 certificate for a guitar imported from the USA today, be it sent via a courier or brought in on a plane - this is an area I can't see clarification on - Maybe you know further

To be honest this is why I know longer look to purchase from overseas any used guitars due to the confusion and aggro

Noticed the following on another site 

One thing that is very important: On the export permission from the US, field #15 must be stamped by the export customs office. For this reason, the seller must take the instrument to one of the export customs offices in the US to get it stamped there!

If this is missing – which seems to be often the case when just leaving this job to the post service – the guitar cannot be imported into the EU, in other words will not pass the border to the EU. The missing stamp cannot be received afterwards.

Limehouse_Blues

The stamping of field 15 is done at the port of export by USDA or FWS law enforcement officers in their office at the port. Provided that the exporter’s courier knows how to handle appropriately documented CITES exports it should not present a problem. However, it makes hand carrying (with docs) practically very difficult (if not impossible) and with a high chance of missing a flight. 

I’ve some thoughts on the feasibility of getting a commercial use permit for vintage guitars lawfully imported today and have heard different things from different authorities I’ve spoken to in different EU countries. I’ll put everything together in a post some time in the new year. For now I’m just crossing my fingers that my U.K. import permit comes through so that I can finally get my hands on my new (old) guitar.

guitars4you

Limehouse_Blues said:

The stamping of field 15 is done at the port of export by USDA or FWS law enforcement officers in their office at the port. Provided that the exporter’s courier knows how to handle appropriately documented CITES exports it should not present a problem. However, it makes hand carrying (with docs) practically very difficult (if not impossible) and with a high chance of missing a flight. 

I’ve some thoughts on the feasibility of getting a commercial use permit for vintage guitars lawfully imported today and have heard different things from different authorities I’ve spoken to in different EU countries. I’ll put everything together in a post some time in the new year. For now I’m just crossing my fingers that my U.K. import permit comes through so that I can finally get my hands on my new (old) guitar.

it sounds like you have a better understanding than many - yet know it has somewhat of a hit n miss approach to i my different authorities - which just adds to the overall confusion of ownership, purchase and selling - Probably easier to buy/sell an AK47 than a 62 Strat

Look forward to hearing more - good luck with your own transaction

adamm82

I recently traveled back with a guitar from LAX although it wouldn't be effected by CITES, (telecaster) 
I wasn't asked any questions at all about what was in the case. In fact if anything the TSA fella was very helpful.

though I'd be rather nervous if I was bringing back something vintage. 

rico

This whole CITES thing is an incredibly tedious subject.

Limehouse_Blues

rico said:

This whole CITES thing is an incredibly tedious subject.

Well, I’ll grant you it’s not exactly rock n roll but for anyone in the market for vintage guitars it’s pretty useful to know your way around this stuff. You’re perfectly at liberty to go read something else.

The bureaucracy certainly is tedious but the broader political dimension is both fascinating and tragic. Earlier this year two journalists in Madagascar were imprisoned after their paper published a letter accusing government officials of involvement in illegal rosewood trafficking.

guitars4you

Limehouse_Blues said:

rico said:

This whole CITES thing is an incredibly tedious subject.

Well, I’ll grant you it’s not exactly rock n roll but for anyone in the market for vintage guitars it’s pretty useful to know your way around this stuff. You’re perfectly at liberty to go read something else.

The bureaucracy certainly is tedious but the broader political dimension is both fascinating and tragic. Earlier this year two journalists in Madagascar were imprisoned after their paper published a letter accusing government officials of involvement in illegal rosewood trafficking.

Isn't Madagascar run by a dictator - as such sod CITES its my wood/tree and I can cut it down if I want to - but need to find a buyer

Limehouse_Blues

I think that’s pretty much the size of it. I guess most of it ends up in furniture in China

rico

I'm not complaining about this thread! It was more a comment about the whole palaver of being restricted to what you can and can't readily buy from the US without jumping through a shed load of hoops.

Limehouse_Blues

rico said:

I'm not complaining about this thread! It was more a comment about the whole palaver of being restricted to what you can and can't readily buy from the US without jumping through a shed load of hoops.

Sorry @rico . I misread your comment. I agree that the whole thing is a massive pain. I think that guitarists as a group were pretty much overlooked as these rules were established. Compared to furniture so little rosewood ends up in guitars it would be nice if there could be some accommodation to make life easier for people trading guitars that predate the restrictions 

ICBM

guitars4you said:

I know the guitar trade in all major countries are in talks with CITES, both about ease of use and even an exemption based on low usage of new rosewood (compared to other trades) along with the whole used market place - CITES have admitted they did not know a used market place existed

This is quite surprising, and shows that the legislation and its consequences was not properly researched or thought through.

I’m very strongly in favour of environmental protection, but sadly this is all too typical. The regulations over export of timber from the source countries is another example - it maximises waste by insisting on processing at source rather than destination, so could actually be counterproductive if the goal is to preserve natural stocks.

Bridgehouse

ICBM said:

guitars4you said:

I know the guitar trade in all major countries are in talks with CITES, both about ease of use and even an exemption based on low usage of new rosewood (compared to other trades) along with the whole used market place - CITES have admitted they did not know a used market place existed

This is quite surprising, and shows that the legislation and its consequences was not properly researched or thought through.

I’m very strongly in favour of environmental protection, but sadly this is all too typical. The regulations over export of timber from the source countries is another example - it maximises waste by insisting on processing at source rather than destination, so could actually be counterproductive if the goal is to preserve natural stocks.

Don't forget the CITES rosewood issue was around furniture - especially furniture from or for the Chinese market.

I suspect that not only did they not consider a used market, but didn't consider a musical instrument market at all either. 

Given the sheer tonnage involved in the furnture market with rosewood, most people who are actually concerned about the natural stocks wouldn't give a shit about a few 60's era guitars moving around. 

guitars4you

ICBM said:

guitars4you said:

I know the guitar trade in all major countries are in talks with CITES, both about ease of use and even an exemption based on low usage of new rosewood (compared to other trades) along with the whole used market place - CITES have admitted they did not know a used market place existed

This is quite surprising, and shows that the legislation and its consequences was not properly researched or thought through.

I’m very strongly in favour of environmental protection, but sadly this is all too typical. The regulations over export of timber from the source countries is another example - it maximises waste by insisting on processing at source rather than destination, so could actually be counterproductive if the goal is to preserve natural stocks.

totally agree that we need to protect the environment - but protecting potential sales of used good is pointless - CITES admitted they did not realise a used market place existed -  I recently got in a pickle with the mail order sale of a used guitar to Jersey - held up at customs due to a cross border sale - Jersey not in EU or UK, so they required a CITES certificate for the sale of a used guitar with an Indian Rosewood fingerboard that was 5 years old - They were legally in the right as it was a mail order transaction - Yet if taken in as their own luggage on a plane then do CITES required - So we re-shipped to his families address in London, who then took the same guitar on the plane as their possession to Jersey - Bottom line is the customer still legally acquired the guitar from me to him - So what have CITES achieved - Stupid situation

CITES could be instantly removed worldwide on all used guitars made before 1/1/17 - Then if all new guitars with rosewood require a certificate then so be it - But this CITES certificate for new guitars to be serial number linked then held with the guitar for world wide use at all times, be it re-sold as new or used - If at a later date new guitar sales are excluded from CITES low useage then fair enough