57 Les Paul TV on e bay

scalino65

Ahoy hoy Junior nuts..
Noticed this on the bay in the US. No pics of the stuff you want to see, but could it be genuine? Any thoughts from the experts?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1957-GIBSON-LES-PAUL-JR-TV-Yellow/322908223094?hash=item4b2ed47676:g:lA8AAOSwridaHMFn
cheers
Will

adamm82

hard to tell with the refinish. but the bottom of the bridge seems very close to the pick up compared to other 57s, could be an earlier model 54-56

scalino65

Yup I thought it looked close too. Ive asked the guy for pics of the control cavity and the pickguard removed. See if I get any response.

Funkfingers

adamm82 said:

hard to tell with the refinish. 

I am surprised at the uniformity of the finish on the rear of the headstock. You might have expected some of the original finish to have been left around the original serial number stamp. 

If the rubber stamped number has been recreated, how much of the rest of the guitar is genuine rather than an expert replica?

ICBM

Funkfingers said:

I am surprised at the uniformity of the finish on the rear of the headstock. You might have expected some of the original finish to have been left around the original serial number stamp. 

If the rubber stamped number has been recreated, how much of the rest of the guitar is genuine rather than an expert replica?

I'm sure the stamp has been re-done, it's just too new-looking to be the original. I think there's some evidence of sanding on the cutaway horn tip as well, the shape doesn't look quite right.

The rest of it does look right, but hard to be sure...

IvisonGuitars

Pics aren’t great but It’s a good looking refin, stamps definitely been redone, possible logo too, looks too fat. Tuners seem a little clean to be original but better pics needed all round to be sure.

Its not a ‘57 due to the pickup placement - ‘57 is seen as the ‘magic’ year for single cuts (probably because of the Gibson reissue and when they got the pickup position ‘right’) hence why it’s been numbered as such but on face value it looks like a pretty genuine ‘54 to ‘56 to me, cavity shots and underside of pickup are needed to confirm.

First question I always want to know when dealing with a refin is “what is it hiding??”

guitars4you

as per other comments - it is hard to fully evaluate with info we can see

Remember it looks like this is a bid option so expect price to rise but more importantly it would require an Article 10 CITES certificate for Brazilian Rosewood , to leave the USA and one for the EU to enter - You would need cooperation from seller for this to happen and could take 8-12 weeks in total for both to be issued, hence before safe to ship

adamm82

guitars4you said:

as per other comments - it is hard to fully evaluate with info we can see

Remember it looks like this is a bid option so expect price to rise but more importantly it would require an Article 10 CITES certificate for Brazilian Rosewood , to leave the USA and one for the EU to enter - You would need cooperation from seller for this to happen and could take 8-12 weeks in total for both to be issued, hence before safe to ship

:-( I think when I actually decide to buy a vintage junior I will fly to the US to buy it and bring it back. 

I had a long chat about it with mark when I visit Norm's in LA and they were saying it's been a nightmare for them as they can't ship anything rosewood anymore and said they used to send a lot of stuff to vintage and rare guitars in Bath.

Though he did say I can't ship it to you but if you buy it go across the street and send it yourself by fedex that would work.Is that true?

Skipped

I would say that buying a vintage guitar in the USA is less problematic than buying in the UK.
Simply because there are more sellers who have seen hundreds of Juniors, handled hundreds of Juniors, sold hundreds of Juniors over their lifetime.
Their reputation depends on that knowledge.....and depends on not shipping you a fake or a basket case. Because that would destroy their reputation at a stroke.

The trick is finding that person. It is probably going to be a dealer. Any dealer can be checked out by chatting on LPF or MLPF. (If they are still talking to us). Or someone here might know them. 

Checking out this ebay seller will be more difficult. I would want more than Paypal Protection to risk that.
When it is vintage, the seller is even more important than the guitar.

All subject to CITIES. Obviously.

guitars4you

adamm82 said:

guitars4you said:

as per other comments - it is hard to fully evaluate with info we can see

Remember it looks like this is a bid option so expect price to rise but more importantly it would require an Article 10 CITES certificate for Brazilian Rosewood , to leave the USA and one for the EU to enter - You would need cooperation from seller for this to happen and could take 8-12 weeks in total for both to be issued, hence before safe to ship

:-( I think when I actually decide to buy a vintage junior I will fly to the US to buy it and bring it back. 

I had a long chat about it with mark when I visit Norm's in LA and they were saying it's been a nightmare for them as they can't ship anything rosewood anymore and said they used to send a lot of stuff to vintage and rare guitars in Bath.

Though he did say I can't ship it to you but if you buy it go across the street and send it yourself by fedex that would work.Is that true?

I must admit that if I was buying a $5-10K guitar then the idea of a long weekend away can add to the overall buying experience - Especially if you have a choice and/or know it is going to go as planned - Suppose it depends what town, private sale, dealer and what other similar vintage guitars you can look at whilst there - Maybe look at the option of visiting one of the big vintage shows

The exchange rate is against you today though

Ref shipping it back, then as far as I'm aware it is the same issue if Normans send it or you send it via Fed ex - personally I would not risk it - I'm not even sure if there is an issue in the USA of needing an article 10 CITES certificate for Brazilian rosewood at the point of purchase - I don't think there is, providing it stays in the USA

If taking it back as your own personal luggage - Would you want it to go in the hold with the rest of the bags ? - I'd want it on my overhead locker, or stored with the flight crews belongings - I'd still check with the UK authorities about bringing back Brazilian rosewood guitars - I know it is fine for Indian, but not sure now on new rulings

On the subject of CITES - talks between authorities, builders, dealers etc have taken place, with more to follow, regarding the whole market and the impact it is having, both regarding new and used guitars - So hopeful in that such talks have taken place but will have to wait and see what happens next

Limehouse_Blues

guitars4you said:

as per other comments - it is hard to fully evaluate with info we can see

Remember it looks like this is a bid option so expect price to rise but more importantly it would require an Article 10 CITES certificate for Brazilian Rosewood , to leave the USA and one for the EU to enter - You would need cooperation from seller for this to happen and could take 8-12 weeks in total for both to be issued, hence before safe to ship

Assuming the manufacturer headstock logo is original it would also require a declaration to be made on export to the US fish and wildlife service for mother of pearl and the exporter would likely require a wildlife export license from FWS. This is a domestic US requirement unrelated to CITES.

Limehouse_Blues

Fedexing to yourself without CITES docs is a dumb idea. Shields the dealer from liability but exposes the buyer to potential criminal liability in 2 countries.

If hand carrying a vintage piece you still need CITES export / import docs for dalbergia nigra because it is Appendix 1. And the FWS declaration for mother of pearl (if any in the guitar).

The export/import CITES docs are not ‘Art 10’ certificates. Art 10 refers to the certificate needed for subsequent commercial use after import into EU.

scalino65

The junior went for just over three grand. I asked the guy for further pics but didnt get a reply. I wonder if somebody has just paid 3k for a slightly beaten up new gibson one with a knackered lifton case...who knows?

IvisonGuitars

I'd have been confident that one was genuine.

This one, however, raises more questions than it has answers for me...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gibson-Les-Paul-Junior-genuine-1958-refinished-yellow-thin-neck-tone-machine/312017220676?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=6774bc1cd55f4bd5bc1ed7c0db047368&pid=100675&rk=2&rkt=15&sd=122844325455&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Ac317f57c-d9d8-11e7-9ded-74dbd180185f%7Cparentrq%3A277e24fd1600a86bde2cce2dfff114eb%7Ciid%3A1

scalino65

Neil, as a junior expert, can I ask why you thought that about the one I posted? I'm still learning! Cheers. Will

IvisonGuitars

scalino65 said:

Neil, as a junior expert, can I ask why you thought that about the one I posted? I'm still learning! Cheers. Will

It just 'looks right' to me Will. Obviously that's a bold claim and cavity shots etc would confirm anything but the grain in the mahogany looks right to me, that's 99.9% old stuff, you don't get that long grained stuff these days - perhaps only on very high end replicas. Plus it's the right shape and the body radius is that sharper '54/'56 type.

scalino65

THanks Neil. So, I'd say thats about the right money for aTV (if it was originally) refin. Any thoughts on tht? I guess it makes an original one about 6k-ish..

guitars4you

Limehouse_Blues said:

Assuming the manufacturer headstock logo is original it would also require a declaration to be made on export to the US fish and wildlife service for mother of pearl and the exporter would likely require a wildlife export license from FWS. This is a domestic US requirement unrelated to CITES.

Limehouse_Blues said:

Fedexing to yourself without CITES docs is a dumb idea. Shields the dealer from liability but exposes the buyer to potential criminal liability in 2 countries.

If hand carrying a vintage piece you still need CITES export / import docs for dalbergia nigra because it is Appendix 1. And the FWS declaration for mother of pearl (if any in the guitar).

The export/import CITES docs are not ‘Art 10’ certificates. Art 10 refers to the certificate needed for subsequent commercial use after import into EU.

In the USA don't wildlife and fisheries handle both the MOP and rosewood issues ?

I had forgotten about the MOP issue, but if you take it out of the USA as your 'own' guitar does this application still apply ?

Furthermore I'm still under the thought pattern that the article 10 is required to get it into the EU - best to check with authorities first on this if thinking of such an under taking

Just goes to show the uncertainty and mess it has all become - I know so many 'dealers' who no longer buy via the USA for this reason 

Animal and Plant Health Agency (APHA)

Telephone: 0117 372 3700 | Email: wildlife.licensing@apha.gsi.gov.uk

Website: www.gov.uk/apha | Twitter: @APHAgovuk | Facebook: aphagov

Address: UK CITES Management Authority, Centre for International Trade - Bristol

Horizon House, Deanery Road, Bristol, BS1 5AH 

ICBM

It seems to me that there could be a significant breakdown in the globalisation of the vintage guitar market which has happened in the last 20 years or so with cheap international courier services. In the old days, vintage American guitars were worth far more here than in the US because they were rare, and difficult and expensive to import (And vice versa for vintage British amps.) Even given that the 'pool' of vintage US guitars here is larger now, I can certainly see dealers trying to push prices up with the argument that you can't as easily undercut them by buying one from the US any more.

Limehouse_Blues

guitars4you said:

Limehouse_Blues said:

Assuming the manufacturer headstock logo is original it would also require a declaration to be made on export to the US fish and wildlife service for mother of pearl and the exporter would likely require a wildlife export license from FWS. This is a domestic US requirement unrelated to CITES.

Limehouse_Blues said:

Fedexing to yourself without CITES docs is a dumb idea. Shields the dealer from liability but exposes the buyer to potential criminal liability in 2 countries.

If hand carrying a vintage piece you still need CITES export / import docs for dalbergia nigra because it is Appendix 1. And the FWS declaration for mother of pearl (if any in the guitar).

The export/import CITES docs are not ‘Art 10’ certificates. Art 10 refers to the certificate needed for subsequent commercial use after import into EU.

In the USA don't wildlife and fisheries handle both the MOP and rosewood issues ?

I had forgotten about the MOP issue, but if you take it out of the USA as your 'own' guitar does this application still apply ?

Furthermore I'm still under the thought pattern that the article 10 is required to get it into the EU - best to check with authorities first on this if thinking of such an under taking

Just goes to show the uncertainty and mess it has all become - I know so many 'dealers' who no longer buy via the USA for this reason 

Animal and Plant Health Agency (APHA)

Telephone: 0117 372 3700 | Email: wildlife.licensing@apha.gsi.gov.uk

Website: www.gov.uk/apha | Twitter: @APHAgovuk | Facebook: aphagov

Address: UK CITES Management Authority, Centre for International Trade - Bristol

Horizon House, Deanery Road, Bristol, BS1 5AH 

If a guitar has both MOP and d.nigra then USFWS do the export checks at one of their designated ports. If the guitar only contains d.nigra (no MOP) then export checks are done by a APHIS (a branch of the US Dept of Agriculture)

In the EU reg Art 10 is the provision under which certificates for export/re-export and commercial use are issued. Import is all dealt with under Art 4.

after an impromptu trip to Nashville recently I’m mid way through this process and waiting for an import permit now. Once successfully navigated I’ll write something up as it may be helpful for others looking to navigate the process.

GuyR

The seller's other listings are quite interesting;

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/am19901756/m.html?item=322908223094&hash=item4b2ed47676:g:lA8AAOSwridaHMFn&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562