Clone amp discussion...How much of the "Soul" of an amp are the transformers?

Aidanspaghetti

Is the transformer the real clincher when it comes to clone amplifiers these days?

For example if you were to get a Ceriatone Dizzy 30 (Matchless dc 30 clone) and source the original transformers and get a reputable tech to wire it up....

For any of you who have done it - please jump in...

Its complete guesswork but i'd imagine you'd be pretty close to the real deal...

I know that the real amplifiers will always have a mystique or mojo about them but im very very curious!

Ive checked out loads of YT clips of both Matchless and Soldano clones (I've read all about the famous SLO trannies) and i'd love to jump in the boat so to speak..

Ive got an empty Matchless combo shell with original speakers waiting to be filled with the right chassis

martinw

Transformers, particularly (but not only) the output transformer, affect the sound an amp makes.

If you build an amp with different transformers, the amp will sound different. How different depends on how much you vary from the original spec.

Whether the difference is better, worse or 'neither, just different' is mostly subjective, given sensible choice of transformers.

Amplifier manufacturers (and some amp owners) would like you to believe that only their original transformers have the 'magic'. Some pedal manufacturers are the same about diodes and chips.

All the Ceriatones I've built have been excellent sounding amps, whether with C'tone trannies, or the stuff I've substituted (Metroamp, Hammond, Mojo etc.)

Aidanspaghetti

Thanks for the reply Martin - and with your wealth of knowwledge and experience I know its well founded!

I  had 2 vintage Hiwatt Dr103 heads and a 71 Fane loaded 4 x12 for years.. My 78 head had a drake Power tranny and the 75 was all partridge.

To my ears there was very little difference - but my ears are half goosed anyway from old stacks

I guess there is a lot of snake oil in marketing products these days.....

I guess if it sounds good, it is!

ICBM

I don't think there's anywhere near as much difference in transformers as companies who make expensive transformers will tell you .

There is a difference between cheap crap and decent quality, and the spec can be different even between two that do the same job (and even appear to be the same size as well), but in actual tone when you're comparing two of similar quality and the same spec, I don't think so much.

The tone of an amp has far more to do with the circuit than anything else.

ThePrettyDamned

Who would have thought the people that make transformers would want you to think they make the most crucial difference?

I read an article by peavey on the bandit, and how it's evolved and it had a lot of technical jargon. It basically said something about why an electric guitar amp has a "bad" transformer, relative to a hi Fi amp, which has a "good" one. Is there any truth in this? I think it was talking about the way a transformer can sort of filter out certain things in a sound. Or leave them in (hifi).

ICBM

Yes.

It's very important to remember that the goal in hi-fi is completely different from a musical instrument amp, and not to think that the same rules, problems, solutions and desirability of the results are anything like the same. In fact, they're often diametrically opposite.

Hence why importing concepts from hi-fi into guitar amps (and even bass amps) is wrong - even basic stuff like the reasons for the desirability of 'Class A'. (Assuming there are any guitar amps that actually qualify... )

martinw

..and leading on from this, it's why there's not much point bragging about quality (and hence charging more) for certain components.

Sometimes the cheaper option sounds better.

(Of course it's possible to go too far, or make bad choices, but for example a decent 'basic' output transformer might sound subjectively better than an expensive one. Certain companies get round this using marketing BS and pretty powder coated shrouds, allowing visuals and price to override the ears!)

ThePrettyDamned

I think I read somewhere that the Laney l50h lionheart is as close as it gets to class a, and runs 5 (count them!) el34s for 50 watts.

No idea about that, but for rock and blues it's the best sounding amp I've ever heard! Still rather have the ironheart though...

It is interesting about all different components. I always think of gibson bumblebee reissues and people insisting they sounded better...

Lodious

I thought the "Soul" of an amp came from marketing and internet reviews? $-)

ICBM

ThePrettyDamned said:

I think I read somewhere that the Laney l50h lionheart is as close as it gets to class a, and runs 5 (count them!) el34s for 50 watts.

Yes, absolutely true. Even then, Class A only applies when the power amp is not being overdriven.

The Lionheart series are almost unique in being parallel-single-ended. Even most single-ended amps barely qualify since they're usually biased too hot for a symetrical waveform at full power, but from what I remember of the Lionheart 20 I worked on, it was closer than most.

ThePrettyDamned said:

It is interesting about all different components. I always think of gibson bumblebee reissues and people insisting they sounded better...

I still wonder whether they sound better now that they've been exposed as a fraud .

Van_Hayden

THD Bivalve and a couple of Matamps are PSE, I suspect there are quite a few vintage rarities that run this way too.

Class A...guess what if you're running your 100w head at bedroom level it's running class A.... That fact annoys a lot of class A purists.

Distortion is what you want, even when it sounds clean. If you like it crispy go hifi. We're after cool sound generation, not accurate reproduction. Harmonic distortion and uneven frequency response, crap power supplies and dubious transformers all become part of it. Although recreating the dubious nature of some of these components can be expensive/impossible.

Van_Hayden

When I was younger & read too much on the net. I built a Marshall clone using metal film resistors, silver teflon wire and an output tranny constructed more like a hifi amp. Sounded like a swarm of bees, the top end was like nails on a blackboard. Even though the parts were better than they should be...I could have saved a fortune and mad it sound better.

ThePrettyDamned

Haha true. The bumble bee cap thing was a fave of mine, watching it unfold I especially loved the, "X rays are not clear enough" posts. So they cut them open

Aidanspaghetti

It all get pretty mental doesnt it?!

Trust your ears

Im jumping off the gear gravy train.... Gonna pick up an old DSL head and rock out with that

Deijavoo

I have a SLO clone that I had various options on the transformer and to my ears the O'Netics examples I heard were far closer to the real deal than what other manufacturers versions were.

There are many other variables to consider too but I'm very happy with mine as it sounds exactly like what I wanted/asked for. 

Deijavoo

http://toboy-diy.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/daves-custom-amp.htmlla ;

ICBM

Aidanspaghetti said:

It all get pretty mental doesnt it?!

Trust your ears

Im jumping off the gear gravy train.... Gonna pick up an old DSL head and rock out with that

You could try something with less of a tendency to catch fire instead.

If you must, get the newest one you can find not an old one.

GuitarMonkey

When I made my Matchless clone I bought the OEM transformers from Westlabs. 

Maybe I could have got an equivalent sound more cheaply but I wanted to get it as close as I could to the original.

The amp started out as a Spitfire built on turret board then I bought a Ceriatone Lightning board.

octatonic

11%.

ecc83

I have been able to do something with OPTs that few if anyone else here has, or could do.

A/B switch an original and a different traff in several different amps. 

The amps were cathode biased types EL84 (one EL34) and fixed biased EL34 and 6l6. Some had negative feedback, some none.

The "B" transformer was supposed to be to the original specc' but in fact some differed slightly in winding resistances and turns ratios. 

In no instance could any of several very experienced player/testers tell which was which traff! The tests included quiet, clean stuff as well as seriously loud ODrive mayhem.

My conclusion is that a well made, close to specc' transformer will not change the sound of an amp ref the original to any reasonable degree.

Dave.

Aidanspaghetti

Thanks Dave . . .

Will certainly make a few amps with non original trannies a bargain for hunters!