Nerve Damage Acupncture

west

You could try a red light device aka photobiomodulation lllt , its how i cured the peripheral neuropathy in my left hand ... https://redlightman.com/product/infrared-mini-830/

Fuengi

@Grunfeld is correct about the Placebo Effect, it is a fascinating subject, and it does work.

One of the strangest results I read about was from doctor self medicating what he knew to be be a placebo, and STILL feeling a benefit. 

Alternative (not scientifically proven) medicine practices tend to have a strong social element, and a caring, sympathetic practitioner. A lot of the time that is actually what a patient needs, but isn't always supplied by the NHS (blasphemy!).

From my understanding of placebo it is the combination of care and perceived treatment that is most effective.

If I was going to go for any alternative treatment I'd probably go with Homeopathy because it's just water and can't do you any damage. 

However there is a very good reason that Homeopathy and Acupuncture clinics don't have emergency departments.

I'd go for a relaxing massage over acupuncture any day of the week, as its much more likely to result in a happy ending. 

Sporky

Maynehead said:

Are you saying that not a single person has benefitted from accupuncture?

If you could quote me where I said that then you would have done so, thus it is clear that I did not say that. Phrasing it as a question does not make it any more valid an argumentative tactic.

Maynehead said:

Are you saying that all the people who have suffered from back pain for over 10 years and felt complete relief after a single session just got lucky?

As above, if I had said that then you could have quoted me saying that. I did not, so you cannot, so clearly I did not say that.

Maynehead said:

Grouping nerve stimulation treatments along with eating Smarties is a very naive view in my opinion.

Conflating popularity with efficacy is a much more naive view. As has been pointed out, the overwhelming evidence is that acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo. The placebo effect has been studied in some depth - as Kalimna says, it's not simple, and it has genuine perceived benefits in a range of conditions. You might want to have a go at Dylan Evan's "Placebo" as an interesting (though not definitive) book on the subject so that you understand the arguments being presented here.

usedtobe

The Chinese also believe rhinoceros horn and tiger penis have medicinal properties, apparently..

p90fool

Fuengi said:

I'd go for a relaxing massage over acupuncture any day of the week, as its much more likely to result in a happy ending. 

You mean "You may feel a small prick"? 
Sounds pretty similar to me 

Maynehead

Sporky said:

Maynehead said:

Are you saying that not a single person has benefitted from accupuncture?

If you could quote me where I said that then you would have done so, thus it is clear that I did not say that. Phrasing it as a question does not make it any more valid an argumentative tactic.

Maynehead said:

Are you saying that all the people who have suffered from back pain for over 10 years and felt complete relief after a single session just got lucky?

As above, if I had said that then you could have quoted me saying that. I did not, so you cannot, so clearly I did not say that.

Maynehead said:

Grouping nerve stimulation treatments along with eating Smarties is a very naive view in my opinion.

Conflating popularity with efficacy is a much more naive view. As has been pointed out, the overwhelming evidence is that acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo. The placebo effect has been studied in some depth - as Kalimna says, it's not simple, and it has genuine perceived benefits in a range of conditions. You might want to have a go at Dylan Evan's "Placebo" as an interesting (though not definitive) book on the subject so that you understand the arguments being presented here.

Don't worry, I'm wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, I was simply asking for confirmation that you weren't trying to say that acupuncture doesn't work.

Can I assume from the above that you think that acupuncture can and does work? Placebo or not?

If that is the case, then my entire point from the beginning was that if it could work, why not give it a go?

Unfortunately there are no clinics offering blue smarties as an equivalent treatment so I cannot recommend that as an alternative...

Sporky

Maynehead said:

Don't worry, I'm wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, I was simply asking for confirmation that you weren't trying to say that acupuncture doesn't work.

Can I assume from the above that you think that acupuncture can and does work? Placebo or not?

I believe I have been entirely clear already; I have pointed out several times that acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo.

Purely as a discussion point, would you agree that decapitation is an effective treatment for reported pain in a person's foot? After all, they will not feel any pain in their foot following the procedure.

From my point of view you seem to be trying to get me to agree that decapitation "works" for curing foot pain.

Maynehead

Sporky said:

Maynehead said:

Don't worry, I'm wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, I was simply asking for confirmation that you weren't trying to say that acupuncture doesn't work.

Can I assume from the above that you think that acupuncture can and does work? Placebo or not?

I believe I have been entirely clear already; I have pointed out several times that acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo.

Purely as a discussion point, would you agree that decapitation is an effective treatment for reported pain in a person's foot? After all, they will not feel any pain in their foot following the procedure.

From my point of view you seem to be trying to get me to agree that decapitation "works" for curing foot pain.

From my point of view, you are actively discouraging someone from trying a treatment that even you yourself admit could work.

I’m not trying to have a argument here, I’m simply trying to help the OP get his problem sorted, and in my humble opinion, acupuncture is a good match for the particular type of symptoms he is experiencing, so there’s no need to close the door on a path of treatment that may well alleviate the symptoms without having to resort to sergical intervention.

Sporky

Maynehead said:

a treatment that even you yourself admit could work.

Where have I said that? Stop misrepresenting what I've posted, it's getting tedious.

Yet again, acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo.

I've even put it in bold this time.

Maynehead

Sporky said:

Maynehead said:

a treatment that even you yourself admit could work.

Where have I said that? Stop misrepresenting what I've posted, it's getting tedious.

Yet again, acupuncture is no more effective than a placebo.

I've even put it in bold this time.

Um, this time you really did say it, in your very first post in fact. I don’t see how I could have misrepresented that direct statement you made...

xinkai

My mom's a traditional chinese physician (whatever you guys call a practitioner of TCM over here), she did her PhD in acupuncture in Nanjing, China. She's relatively popular back in Singapore where i'm from when it comes to all things related to acupuncture, so i indirectly have some knowledge about the subject.

It is unfair to dismiss acupuncture as placebo. Here's a paper to read if you're interested: http://www.thomaslundeberg.com/uploaded/dokument/publicerade_dokument/Andersson Lundeberg Acu - from empirism to science.pdf

In terms of biology, what acupuncture does is it stimulates particular sensory points, known as meridians, and doing so causes physiological changes. Yet, at the same time, human psychology has an interesting way of thinking: if it hurts, the treatment must be working, because i can feel it. That's the placebo part. Because of this, it is difficult to separate placebo from actual effects of acupuncture, which makes research on acupuncture tough and often unclear.

Now to answer OP: if you have enough details about your problem, there's no harm giving acupuncture a try. I say enough details because i would expect the acupuncturist to ask you several questions to understand what's going on. What acupuncture is, is that it's applied through particular meridian points, so going in saying that you have a problem with your Ulnar nerve shouldn't be sufficient. The acupuncturist shouldn't be just sticking needles into the nerve and calling it a day, though there are meridian points along that area. Try to find a reputable acupuncturist and during the treatment make your own judgment through the questions you are asked, to decide if you want to proceed with the acupuncture.

Finally, go with an open mind and be willing to accept that it could be all just placebo, because research is honestly still rather inconclusive. Even if it turns out to be entirely placebo, know that it's a placebo that works way better than most others, and could even help you recover faster.

Saying that 'it works no better than placebo' isn't saying much, because we do have many treatments/medicines in the western world that are nothing more than placebos anyway. What's important is that some methods of implementing the placebo are better than others, and acupuncture is in the former group.

Sporky

Maynehead said:

Um, this time you really did say it, in your very first post in fact. I don’t see how I could have misrepresented that direct statement you made...

Oh dear.

What did I actually say?

Because I certainly didn't say that acupuncture works.

You are either not paying attention, or getting incredibly desperate.

sweepy

Well this has almost caused as much hassle as Relic guitars

Maynehead

Sporky said:

Maynehead said:

Um, this time you really did say it, in your very first post in fact. I don’t see how I could have misrepresented that direct statement you made...

Oh dear.

What did I actually say?

Because I certainly didn't say that acupuncture works.

You are either not paying attention, or getting incredibly desperate.

Again, I don’t want to waste time arguing over who said what. It doesn’t serve anyone but yourself.

The idea is simple. Many people have benefitted from acupuncture, especiallly for nerve related problems like this, so why spend so much effort trying to dissuade the OP from giving it a try?

I say if it’s worked for others, it might work for you, so there’s no harm in giving it a go.

Sporky

Maynehead said:

Again, I don’t want to waste time arguing over who said what.

Then stop dishonestly suggesting that I've said that acupuncture works. You keep trying to push something I haven't said; why?

TTony

Fuengi said:

@Grunfeld is correct about the Placebo Effect, it is a fascinating subject, and it does work.

I think it's logical that a placebo can work.

For example, if you're suffering from something like a stress-induced or exacerbated problem, then taking something that you *think* will make you less stressed is likely to make you less stressed.  You've been given a medicine by a trusted professional, you expect it to work, you de-stress yourself and the blue Smartie has worked.

Sure, if you're an awkward bugger, then you'll take the blue Smartie and think "this won't work for me", and it probably won't.  Self-fufilling.  Hence placebos won't work in all cases.

Similarly, they're not going to work if you've got a real physical problem that requires a real physical intervention.

Maynehead

Sporky said:

Maynehead said:

Again, I don’t want to waste time arguing over who said what.

Then stop dishonestly suggesting that I've said that acupuncture works. You keep trying to push something I haven't said; why?

If you really want to argue over who said what feel free to PM me. I really don’t want to clog up this thread with pointless bickering.

The OP is asking for people’s experiences with acupuncture for the symptoms he’s experiencing. If you have tried it and it didn’t work for you, then please say so, I certainly won’t try to dispute it.

I personally have seen it work well for many friends and family, even in cases where all western medical intervention have failed, so I’m saying give it a try, it won’t do any harm.

Grunfeld

xinkai said:

It is unfair to dismiss acupuncture as placebo. Here's a paper to read if you're interested: http://www.thomaslundeberg.com/uploaded/dokument/publicerade_dokument/Andersson Lundeberg Acu - from empirism to science.pdf

The thing is, we can only go on the evidence.  I don't have a dog in this race as far as being emotionally attached to wanting acupuncture to work or not -- I think the important issues are:
(a) We want patients to get better or at least have their symptoms alleviated;
(b) therefore we want to know which treatments are effective -- so we don't waste patients' time (or mine) with ineffective treatments. 
And I also have a (c)*

I read the paper in your link.  The studies it references on pain -- the descriptive ones on pain mechanisms have nothing to do with acupuncture and the acupuncture ones are all in obscure acupuncture journals and quite old and I couldn't access them.  Many of them appear to be Chinese or Japanese too.  Maybe I'm biased but I think we need to see these studies in big, well-known and trustworthy journals.  Later on in the paper it mentions many diseases for which acupuncture has been studied but then literally in the next breath says about the research which is supposed to back these claims up:
"General problems include the small number of patients, the absence of placebo controls and the large variation in acupuncture technique. It is difficult to find reliable scientific proof of a specific effect on any condition." [p.274-275]

That is pretty damning and that is exactly the problem characteristic of studies which report positive outcomes for acupuncture.
The studies which say acupuncture works are low-powered little studies which you can't trust.  Once you get into the good studies and the meta-analyses of the good studies the specific treatment effect of acupuncture disappears. Because it doesn't exist.
Here's a nice example, a 2009 meta analysis of three RCTs from the BMJ, Acupuncture treatment for pain: systematic review of randomised clinical trials with acupuncture, placebo acupuncture, and no acupuncture groups

It would be great if acupuncture had a specific treatment effect above placebo -- because we could use it.  There's no problem using placebo in an ethical way.  Personally, I use context and suggestion because there's a lot of psychological and social layers in chronic pain so it's rational to use anything that can enhance a treatment which already has clinical efficacy. 
The reason why acupuncture gets dismissed as a treatment is because the evidence does not support its efficacy.  It doesn't mean that placebos are useless -- they're not.  But you have to know what you're working with when you're treating patients.

* (c) I want to know how a treatment works too from a theoretical basis.  I don't actually need to know this from a pragmatic point of view but it's not unreasonable to think that if we know how something works then we can improve it.

west

This paper shows a mechanism of action , its seems acupuntcture works at a mitochondrial level and can mechanically stimulate the mtor pathway inducing autophagy , ill take the red light over the needles ....                         
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep19714

Sporky

Maynehead said:

If you really want to argue over who said what feel free to PM me. I really don’t want to clog up this thread with pointless bickering.

Then stop claiming I've said things I haven't. It's that simple. Soon as you stop that I won't have to point out that you're misrepresenting what I've said - this is entirely up to you, so stop blaming me for your poor behaviour.

Maynehead said:

The OP is asking for people’s experiences with acupuncture for the symptoms he’s experiencing. If you have tried it and it didn’t work for you, then please say so, I certainly won’t try to dispute it.

But you are disputing the overwhelming evidence - do you really favour anecdata over properly controlled studies?

Maynehead said:

I personally have seen it work well for many friends and family, even in cases where all western medical intervention have failed, so I’m saying give it a try, it won’t do any harm.

The problem with saying "quack treatment [x] does no harm" is that while people are having crystals put in their pants or snail mucus smeared on their feet they are not getting proper treatment, so there is a very real risk that not only do these treatments not work, they often result in greater harm because the condition deteriorates while they waste time burying their toenail clippings at a crossroads during a full moon.