Spitfire documentary

Fretwired

Not seen this since it was first shown .. good documentary with Raymond Baxter and lots of famous Spit pilots .. not gung-ho .. very balanced and interesting if you like the Spit ..

HAL9000

Excellent stuff.

...and an opportunity to post this...

https://youtu.be/txZjUwDQI6Q

Heartfeltdawn

Are there any recommendations for a documentary that is gung ho, gloriously partisan, and full of referencing to giving Fritz's lederhosen-clad backside a jolly good thrashing? 

scrumhalf

Heartfeltdawn said:

 and full of referencing to giving Fritz's lederhosen-clad backside a jolly good thrashing? 

I'm sure there are places on the internet with plenty of lederhosen-related thrashing. They may not be historically accurate, however.

stimpsonslostson

I've not seen that one before, buy this is on 4OD- Guy Martin Spitfire. 
As with all his stuff I think it's excellent. 

Wolfetone

Just watched it. It was made at a time when most involved were still alive to give excellent accounts of their roles.

It was great to see Jonny Johnson, Bob Stanford-Tuck and Douglas Bader all describing tactics and experiences.

Highly recommended viewing. 

Fretwired

I didn't realise they used 'jet power' from the exhaust gases to make the plane go faster.

Loved the story at the end with the German pilot who was shot down over Scotland .. when captured he said he'd been shot down by a Spitfire but was informed it was a Hurricane and there weren't any Spitfires for 200 miles. The German pilots were Spitfire snobs ... :-)

Wolfetone

The only (very mild) issue I had was with a comment made that Goering wasn't a professional pilot which of course he was. He was an ace with twenty two victories, wounded in battle and awarded the Iron Cross first class.  

Fretwired

Wolfetone said:

The only (very mild) issue I had was with a comment made that Goering wasn't a professional pilot which of course he was. He was an ace with twenty two victories, wounded in battle and awarded the Iron Cross first class.  

The comment was 'airman' rather than pilot - I think he meant was wasn't experienced enough to lead the Luftwaffe. Goering was a pilot during WW1 .. he left towards the end of the war. Dowding was a pilot in WW1 but went on to become a senior officer and by the time of the Battle of Britain had 25 years experience in the RAF and had helped put the UK's air defences in place. In comparison Goering was an amateur. Adolf Galland's autobiography is a great read - he thought Goering was a clown. He wouldn't listen to anyone .. when he was told about the UK's radar stations he made some stupid quip about then bringing the RAF up to be destroyed (it was in Galland's book). Galland wanted to destroy the radar stations and bomb the airfields round the clock. Goering was stuck in WW1 with fighters flying slowly with bombers to their targets. He hadn't grasped modern tactics. In Poland and France the army called the tune and opposition was quickly destroyed.

ICBM

Göring also badly underestimated the number of aircraft available to the RAF and the rate we could build new ones at, whereas the British did the opposite and overestimated the strength of the Luftwaffe and their aircraft production, so we pulled out all the stops to keep the RAF supplied with fighters, and actually overtook the loss rate so we had more aircraft at the end of the Battle of Britain than the start - whereas the Luftwaffe numbers declined. Almost unbelievably, German industry didn't even work around the clock or at weekends until quite late in the war when they were under severe pressure.

Even given that and the German tactical mistakes, the BoB was more of a draw than a victory really, but that was all we needed - they needed to win. Still an achievement given the relative sizes of the two air forces though.

Fretwired

ICBM said:

Göring also badly underestimated the number of aircraft available to the RAF and the rate we could build new ones at, whereas the British did the opposite and overestimated the strength of the Luftwaffe and their aircraft production, so we pulled out all the stops to keep the RAF supplied with fighters, and actually overtook the loss rate so we had more aircraft at the end of the Battle of Britain than the start - whereas the Luftwaffe numbers declined. Almost unbelievably, German industry didn't even work around the clock or at weekends until quite late in the war when they were under severe pressure.

Even given that and the German tactical mistakes, the BoB was more of a draw than a victory really, but that was all we needed - they needed to win. Still an achievement given the relative sizes of the two air forces though.

The stats don't tell the story though. Quite often the RAF outnumbered the Luftwaffe in battles as planes were fed into action. RAF pilots grumbled about the machine guns (they wanted kills) but plenty of bombers went back to France full of holes with dead or wounded crew which undermined morale and explained the idiotic way Goering went about things. The damaged planes were mostly written off, but don't appear in the war stats. Add them in and the lost pilots and Galland says the RAF technically won - he was scathing about how the Germans went about the campaign. The cream of the Luftwaffe was destroyed and they never fully recovered.

fandango

Heartfeltdawn said:

Are there any recommendations for a documentary that is gung ho, gloriously partisan, and full of referencing to giving Fritz's lederhosen-clad backside a jolly good thrashing? 

Wasn't there a film called Battle of Britain ... that's as good as a documentary? Even featured plenty of the then-remaining flying Spitfires.

fandango

Fretwired said:

ICBM said:

Göring also badly underestimated the number of aircraft available to the RAF and the rate we could build new ones at, whereas the British did the opposite and overestimated the strength of the Luftwaffe and their aircraft production, so we pulled out all the stops to keep the RAF supplied with fighters, and actually overtook the loss rate so we had more aircraft at the end of the Battle of Britain than the start - whereas the Luftwaffe numbers declined. Almost unbelievably, German industry didn't even work around the clock or at weekends until quite late in the war when they were under severe pressure.

Even given that and the German tactical mistakes, the BoB was more of a draw than a victory really, but that was all we needed - they needed to win. Still an achievement given the relative sizes of the two air forces though.

The stats don't tell the story though. Quite often the RAF outnumbered the Luftwaffe in battles as planes were fed into action. RAF pilots grumbled about the machine guns (they wanted kills) but plenty of bombers went back to France full of holes with dead or wounded crew which undermined morale and explained the idiotic way Goering went about things. The damaged planes were mostly written off, but don't appear in the war stats. Add them in and the lost pilots and Galland says the RAF technically won - he was scathing about how the Germans went about the campaign. The cream of the Luftwaffe was destroyed and they never fully recovered.

As I understand it (having read the excellent book, "The Fighter Boys"), sending the Germans home injured in damaged planes spread the message of demoralisation far better than anything else the RAF cooked up.

That the Fighter Command could keeping giving Jerry a fight when at one point it really was touch and go, is a testament to British grit and tactics. It's one of the proudest moments in British history that they NEVER gave up defending these Isles against the Germans.

It was really weird learning that the Germans were days away from defeating Britain's defensive forces, when Hitler suddenly changed tack and focused on Operation Sealion, despite the advice of his Generals/ Commanders.

It's also a testament to the hardiness of both the Spitfire and Hurricane that these aircraft didn't need tarmac runways, but even so, losses of aircraft and continued damage to RAF bases were debilitating until Spitfire production outran the damage, and more grass runways were brought into operation.

Fretwired

fandango said:

Fretwired said:

ICBM said:

Göring also badly underestimated the number of aircraft available to the RAF and the rate we could build new ones at, whereas the British did the opposite and overestimated the strength of the Luftwaffe and their aircraft production, so we pulled out all the stops to keep the RAF supplied with fighters, and actually overtook the loss rate so we had more aircraft at the end of the Battle of Britain than the start - whereas the Luftwaffe numbers declined. Almost unbelievably, German industry didn't even work around the clock or at weekends until quite late in the war when they were under severe pressure.

Even given that and the German tactical mistakes, the BoB was more of a draw than a victory really, but that was all we needed - they needed to win. Still an achievement given the relative sizes of the two air forces though.

The stats don't tell the story though. Quite often the RAF outnumbered the Luftwaffe in battles as planes were fed into action. RAF pilots grumbled about the machine guns (they wanted kills) but plenty of bombers went back to France full of holes with dead or wounded crew which undermined morale and explained the idiotic way Goering went about things. The damaged planes were mostly written off, but don't appear in the war stats. Add them in and the lost pilots and Galland says the RAF technically won - he was scathing about how the Germans went about the campaign. The cream of the Luftwaffe was destroyed and they never fully recovered.

As I understand it (having read the excellent book, "The Fighter Boys"), sending the Germans home injured in damaged planes spread the message of demoralisation far better than anything else the RAF cooked up.

That the Fighter Command could keeping giving Jerry a fight when at one point it really was touch and go, is a testament to British grit and tactics. It's one of the proudest moments in British history that they NEVER gave up defending these Isles against the Germans.

It was really weird learning that the Germans were days away from defeating Britain's defensive forces, when Hitler suddenly changed tack and focused on Operation Sealion, despite the advice of his Generals/ Commanders.

It's also a testament to the hardiness of both the Spitfire and Hurricane that these aircraft didn't need tarmac runways, but even so, losses of aircraft and continued damage to RAF bases were debilitating until Spitfire production outran the damage, and more grass runways were brought into operation.

Not really - the fighters were being dispersed from the large bases, we were making more planes and the foreign nationals, especially the Poles, had converted to British planes and joined the fight so we had about another 250 well-trained and experienced fighter pilots. Had the Germans knocked out the radar stations the RAF would have had to fly standing patrols which would have sapped the energy of the pilots and not enabled that many planes to engage the enemy. If the Germans had just flown diversion raids (something the RAF got good at) with their fast ME 110s they could have pulled the RAF all over the place whilst their bombers hit targets pretty much unmolested.

But interestingly after the war the British and German military played a war game in which the RAF was pushed back from the south coast and the Germans invaded. The Germans lost. Had they invaded it looks like they would have been defeated.

darthed1981

fandango said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Are there any recommendations for a documentary that is gung ho, gloriously partisan, and full of referencing to giving Fritz's lederhosen-clad backside a jolly good thrashing? 

Wasn't there a film called Battle of Britain ... that's as good as a documentary? Even featured plenty of the then-remaining flying Spitfires.

It is one of my favourite movies, usually on Netflix but not currently.

Fretwired

darthed1981 said:

fandango said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

Are there any recommendations for a documentary that is gung ho, gloriously partisan, and full of referencing to giving Fritz's lederhosen-clad backside a jolly good thrashing? 

Wasn't there a film called Battle of Britain ... that's as good as a documentary? Even featured plenty of the then-remaining flying Spitfires.

It is one of my favourite movies, usually on Netflix but not currently.

As a kid I cycled to a local grass airfield where they filmed Spits taking off and landing for the film ..

darthed1981

Its a great film...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk5gMaCq8GE

fandango

Fretwired said:

fandango said:

Fretwired said:

ICBM said:

Göring also badly underestimated the number of aircraft available to the RAF and the rate we could build new ones at, whereas the British did the opposite and overestimated the strength of the Luftwaffe and their aircraft production, so we pulled out all the stops to keep the RAF supplied with fighters, and actually overtook the loss rate so we had more aircraft at the end of the Battle of Britain than the start - whereas the Luftwaffe numbers declined. Almost unbelievably, German industry didn't even work around the clock or at weekends until quite late in the war when they were under severe pressure.

Even given that and the German tactical mistakes, the BoB was more of a draw than a victory really, but that was all we needed - they needed to win. Still an achievement given the relative sizes of the two air forces though.

The stats don't tell the story though. Quite often the RAF outnumbered the Luftwaffe in battles as planes were fed into action. RAF pilots grumbled about the machine guns (they wanted kills) but plenty of bombers went back to France full of holes with dead or wounded crew which undermined morale and explained the idiotic way Goering went about things. The damaged planes were mostly written off, but don't appear in the war stats. Add them in and the lost pilots and Galland says the RAF technically won - he was scathing about how the Germans went about the campaign. The cream of the Luftwaffe was destroyed and they never fully recovered.

As I understand it (having read the excellent book, "The Fighter Boys"), sending the Germans home injured in damaged planes spread the message of demoralisation far better than anything else the RAF cooked up.

That the Fighter Command could keeping giving Jerry a fight when at one point it really was touch and go, is a testament to British grit and tactics. It's one of the proudest moments in British history that they NEVER gave up defending these Isles against the Germans.

It was really weird learning that the Germans were days away from defeating Britain's defensive forces, when Hitler suddenly changed tack and focused on Operation Sealion, despite the advice of his Generals/ Commanders.

It's also a testament to the hardiness of both the Spitfire and Hurricane that these aircraft didn't need tarmac runways, but even so, losses of aircraft and continued damage to RAF bases were debilitating until Spitfire production outran the damage, and more grass runways were brought into operation.

Not really - the fighters were being dispersed from the large bases, we were making more planes and the foreign nationals, especially the Poles, had converted to British planes and joined the fight so we had about another 250 well-trained and experienced fighter pilots. Had the Germans knocked out the radar stations the RAF would have had to fly standing patrols which would have sapped the energy of the pilots and not enabled that many planes to engage the enemy. If the Germans had just flown diversion raids (something the RAF got good at) with their fast ME 110s they could have pulled the RAF all over the place whilst their bombers hit targets pretty much unmolested.

But interestingly after the war the British and German military played a war game in which the RAF was pushed back from the south coast and the Germans invaded. The Germans lost. Had they invaded it looks like they would have been defeated.

First point: My comment relates to the short time before the production ramped up and the Poles were fully integrated. The history I read really does suggest that should the Germans have continued with their focus on the RAF they could have brought it to it's knees. Remember the pilots were taking the brunt of enemy attacks, in both losses though death and also fatigue, and this was also reducing the availability of the more experienced pilots, whilst the newcomers had far less training and were thrown in at the deep end and told to get on with it. Didn't help the casualty numbers.

Second point: Once the Germans realised radar became a key defensive element, they began targeting British Radar Stations in earnest - another target on top of the factories, bomber air bases, fighter air bases, navy bases, ports, shipping, etc etc. This meant the Germans were starting to spread themselves a bit thin, thus giving some respite to the RAF, which enabled them to rise from the pounding, and recover to then push the action back across the Channel.

Wolfetone

I've read Douglas Bader's biography 'Reach for the sky' and Adolf Galland's biography 'The first and the last'. They are both fantastic reads with the same photo in both where DB was invited to a Luftwaffe airfield for dinner and he asked if he could sit in a 109. The photo shows Galland with a Luger pointed at Bader in case he tried anything. Both accounts are in both books. 

Fretwired

fandango said:

Fretwired said:

fandango said:

Fretwired said:

ICBM said:

Göring also badly underestimated the number of aircraft available to the RAF and the rate we could build new ones at, whereas the British did the opposite and overestimated the strength of the Luftwaffe and their aircraft production, so we pulled out all the stops to keep the RAF supplied with fighters, and actually overtook the loss rate so we had more aircraft at the end of the Battle of Britain than the start - whereas the Luftwaffe numbers declined. Almost unbelievably, German industry didn't even work around the clock or at weekends until quite late in the war when they were under severe pressure.

Even given that and the German tactical mistakes, the BoB was more of a draw than a victory really, but that was all we needed - they needed to win. Still an achievement given the relative sizes of the two air forces though.

The stats don't tell the story though. Quite often the RAF outnumbered the Luftwaffe in battles as planes were fed into action. RAF pilots grumbled about the machine guns (they wanted kills) but plenty of bombers went back to France full of holes with dead or wounded crew which undermined morale and explained the idiotic way Goering went about things. The damaged planes were mostly written off, but don't appear in the war stats. Add them in and the lost pilots and Galland says the RAF technically won - he was scathing about how the Germans went about the campaign. The cream of the Luftwaffe was destroyed and they never fully recovered.

As I understand it (having read the excellent book, "The Fighter Boys"), sending the Germans home injured in damaged planes spread the message of demoralisation far better than anything else the RAF cooked up.

That the Fighter Command could keeping giving Jerry a fight when at one point it really was touch and go, is a testament to British grit and tactics. It's one of the proudest moments in British history that they NEVER gave up defending these Isles against the Germans.

It was really weird learning that the Germans were days away from defeating Britain's defensive forces, when Hitler suddenly changed tack and focused on Operation Sealion, despite the advice of his Generals/ Commanders.

It's also a testament to the hardiness of both the Spitfire and Hurricane that these aircraft didn't need tarmac runways, but even so, losses of aircraft and continued damage to RAF bases were debilitating until Spitfire production outran the damage, and more grass runways were brought into operation.

Not really - the fighters were being dispersed from the large bases, we were making more planes and the foreign nationals, especially the Poles, had converted to British planes and joined the fight so we had about another 250 well-trained and experienced fighter pilots. Had the Germans knocked out the radar stations the RAF would have had to fly standing patrols which would have sapped the energy of the pilots and not enabled that many planes to engage the enemy. If the Germans had just flown diversion raids (something the RAF got good at) with their fast ME 110s they could have pulled the RAF all over the place whilst their bombers hit targets pretty much unmolested.

But interestingly after the war the British and German military played a war game in which the RAF was pushed back from the south coast and the Germans invaded. The Germans lost. Had they invaded it looks like they would have been defeated.

First point: My comment relates to the short time before the production ramped up and the Poles were fully integrated. The history I read really does suggest that should the Germans have continued with their focus on the RAF they could have brought it to it's knees. Remember the pilots were taking the brunt of enemy attacks, in both losses though death and also fatigue, and this was also reducing the availability of the more experienced pilots, whilst the newcomers had far less training and were thrown in at the deep end and told to get on with it. Didn't help the casualty numbers.

Second point: Once the Germans realised radar became a key defensive element, they began targeting British Radar Stations in earnest - another target on top of the factories, bomber air bases, fighter air bases, navy bases, ports, shipping, etc etc. This meant the Germans were starting to spread themselves a bit thin, thus giving some respite to the RAF, which enabled them to rise from the pounding, and recover to then push the action back across the Channel.

The Germans never targeted the radar stations in earnest. They bombed one and stopped. My uncle and father were in the RAF. My uncle was ground crew and they were relocated to a private grass airstrip. There weren't bombed so the fighters were able to operate. The RAF simple dispersed.

Rocker

Heartfeltdawn said:

Are there any recommendations for a documentary that is gung ho, gloriously partisan, and full of referencing to giving Fritz's lederhosen-clad backside a jolly good thrashing? 

Sadly for you guys it is now the other way round these days (Brexit negotiations)