When a clone cost more than the “real” thing

jonnyburgo

was wondering what is better about an Analogman fuzz face compared to a original spec repro like a Dunlop red or jimi version?

age old question but what justifies a SH price of £400 for the AM compared to around £70 for the Dunlop and who would win in a blindfold test?

we all know the circuit is cheap as chips and pretty rudimentary or am I missing something? (I’ve never owned or tried an AM by the way)

Adam_MD

Hype IMO.  I’m not saying the AM won’t sound better than a modern Dunlop fuzzface but secondhand prices for AM pedals are nuts and that’s driven purely by the hype train.  

jonnyburgo

Hmm that’s generally my way of thinking too. There is a certain gravitas to having expensive pedals on your board. Makes the user feel a bit more Mojo’d up knowing that the cork sniffers would be salivating. Having said that if money was no issue I’d probably lose control of my senses too.

Adam_MD

Just to clarify I don’t think AM pedals themselves are massively expensive tbh it’s the crazy secondhand prices for some of them i don’t get.  

bean7

It's a little more than hype in this case imo - the trusted use of genuinely scarce transistors is a pretty big factor here. As to whether the hype around those transistors is justified is another story - no way to know without spending a good few hours playing with a bunch of different ones. From my experience it's all in the dynamic range and response to the guitar as a circuit (especially volume level) - that varies massively depending on transistor type. If thats valuable to you, you'll pay for the knowledge that you'll get it with a specific implementation.

victorludorum

Get a Cornell First Fuzz. Equally as good; maybe better....

Adam_MD

bean7 said:

It's a little more than hype in this case imo - the trusted use of genuinely scarce transistors is a pretty big factor here. As to whether the hype around those transistors is justified is another story - no way to know without spending a good few hours playing with a bunch of different ones. From my experience it's all in the dynamic range and response to the guitar as a circuit (especially volume level) - that varies massively depending on transistor type. If thats valuable to you, you'll pay for the knowledge that you'll get it with a specific implementation.

So magic beans AND hype then?  Gotcha 

soma1975

Brand new they aren't that pricey.

Moe_Zambeek

I’ve had a couple of AM pedals and been underwhelmed by them (KoT, Beano boost). Buying direct they weren’t that expensive though; it’s just the scarcity and hype that makes the used prices high. I don’t think they are worth it at all at second hand prices..

If if I wanted a quality fuzz face or treble boost or whatever I’d ask Castledine or Pigdog or Faceless or Ghost or Hudson or any of the many quality small UK makers. 

english_bob

Moe_Zambeek said:

I’ve had a couple of AM pedals and been underwhelmed by them (KoT, Beano boost). Buying direct they weren’t that expensive though; it’s just the scarcity and hype that makes the used prices high. I don’t think they are worth it at all at second hand prices..

If if I wanted a quality fuzz face or treble boost or whatever I’d ask Castledine or Pigdog or Faceless or Ghost or Hudson or any of the many quality small UK makers. 

Interestingly, none of the builders you mention make a Fuzz Face as part of their standard range. I wonder whether that's to do with the scarcity of the "right" components, market saturation, or what?

Musicman20

I'd opt for a Thorpyfx Veteran.

ThorpyFX

english_bob said:

Moe_Zambeek said:

I’ve had a couple of AM pedals and been underwhelmed by them (KoT, Beano boost). Buying direct they weren’t that expensive though; it’s just the scarcity and hype that makes the used prices high. I don’t think they are worth it at all at second hand prices..

If if I wanted a quality fuzz face or treble boost or whatever I’d ask Castledine or Pigdog or Faceless or Ghost or Hudson or any of the many quality small UK makers. 

Interestingly, none of the builders you mention make a Fuzz Face as part of their standard range. I wonder whether that's to do with the scarcity of the "right" components, market saturation, or what?

The veteran is a fuzz face based circuit on the fuzz side, the silicon variant is in full production because those components are more readily available. As for germanium... it’s down to scarcity of parts. They are hard to buy in the right gain ranges, costly per item and the reality is that to get one useful transistor you have to buy anything from 3-10 of them. It’s costly, time consuming and hard to do right. 

english_bob

bean7 said:

It's a little more than hype in this case imo - the trusted use of genuinely scarce transistors is a pretty big factor here. 

This justifies the new prices to a certain extent. All those old Ge fuzz circuits have a small number of parts, but depend on the transistors, which are now scarce (haven't been in production for decades), and were always highly variable, and require testing and circuit tweaks to get the right sound. The guys prepared to put the "fettling" time in, and who get good results when they do, get to charge a premium. It's sort of like the old joke about the master engineer who comes to the factory to fix a machine, hits it once with a hammer, which fixes it, and charges a fortune for the repair- "hit with hammer: £1. knowing where to hit: £19,999"

Is there hype? Of course. I don't doubt that someone could make a bloody good sounding fuzz pedal with parts that you could get from Maplin, and it's up to each player to decide if they can hear the difference between the £50 Mooer fuzz and the £250 handmade mojo-up-the-wazoo one.There will always be people who will pay for the cachet that comes with the "mojo" parts, or the same transistors that Jimi Hendrix had in his Fuzz Face or whatever, whether they can hear it or not. 

As for the used prices- simple supply and demand. You want an Analogman pedal? You don't want to wait? I can sell you one, but I'm going to profit from it.

You want one he made with transistors he can't get any more? There's a finite number of those, high demand for them, and I've got one. You can bet I'm not letting it go for nothing. But now we've crossed over from simple guitar pedal buying in to antiques and collectables- a guitar pedal made by a recognized master of the craft is no different to any of the other stuff you see on Antiques Roadshow.

Heartfeltdawn

Adam_MD said:

Hype IMO.  I’m not saying the AM won’t sound better than a modern Dunlop fuzzface but secondhand prices for AM pedals are nuts and that’s driven purely by the hype train.  

In the case of stuff like the Sunface, scarcity is the principal driver of the high s/h prices. They're certainly not hyped up on forums in the way the Klon was. 

timhulio

During the past couple of weeks I've had enquiries about clones of both the Zoom Ultrafuzz and the Boss HM-2, both of which are still available for about what a clone might cost, with proper artwork/finish in a run of 50/100. As the originals get scarcer I could see these happening. Although neither have mojo components unlike the FF.

english_bob

timhulio said:

During the past couple of weeks I've had enquiries about clones of both the Zoom Ultrafuzz and the Boss HM-2, both of which are still available for about what a clone might cost, with proper artwork/finish in a run of 50/100. As the originals get scarcer I could see these happening. Although neither have mojo components unlike the FF.

I think we'll see massive changes in the guitar market as the Baby Boom / guitar boom generation with its fond memories of the 60s starts to die off or quit playing.

Players from subsequent generations won't want the same things (and may not have the same sort of money to pay for them). It'll be out with the Fuzz Faces and Marshalls, in with.... I don't know, but probably a much wider range of much more niche stuff.

soma1975

I've said it elsewhere on here recently but the Sunface NKT275 was by a large margin the best fuzz face I have ever used. And I've owned a ton and built a ton. 

It's really that good (If you like Fuzz Faces)

Teetonetal

If demand exceeds supply the SH prices rise. 

Some unscrupuous vendors like fractal even do this in reverse, allowing you to pay more to ensure get ine from the first batch...

I think it's cool that AM hasn't raised prices to SH levels... I'm sure he could.