Laney L20t Revalving Advice

Erskine

It is time to re-valve my Laney L20t and before going ahead and doing so I wondered if anyone had any advice on what valves to use. I have in the past either stuck with the TAD valves or tried JJ ECC83s, using a mix of a Mullard copy and JJs or TADs. in the pre-amp. I have always stuck with TAD EL84s.

I have read this article posted here in 2016 on re-valving advice for a Laney VC30 and thought the recommendations made by ICBM and others would also apply to my L20t. So, based on this I was thinking of trying the following from Karltone:

JJ EL84s
v1 - EH ECC83
v2/v3 - Shuguang 12AX7B/ECC83

The speaker in the amp is a 30watt Celestion G12H and the type of music I play is blues and blues/rock.

So, if anyone has any advice, feel free to chip in.

DJH83004

I think you are on pretty solid ground with your valve choice, The only slight change being use TADs for V2/3 they probably come out of the same factory but better QC - though I do stand to be corrected on this. I have serviced a good number of L20s and they run well on JJs in the output stage. Unusual design but great sounding amps.   
 

strtdv

JJ for the EL84s
Treat yourself to a NOS 12AX7 in V1
Stick whatever is quiet in V2/3

Erskine

strtdv said:

JJ for the EL84s
Treat yourself to a NOS 12AX7 in V1
Stick whatever is quiet in V2/3

Thanks. Would that not be a bit expensive? I checked quickly there and GE, Mullard, etc are around £60 each. I did find a 90s Shuguang going for around £14 which may worth a gamble.

ICBM

Erskine said:

I did find a 90s Shuguang going for around £14 which may worth a gamble.

These are not "NOS" just because they're unused and twenty years old, and anyone trying to sell them as such is taking the piss. They're modern Chinese valves from the start of Chinese production when they weren't very good. I wouldn't pay any more than for a brand-new Shuguang. An *actual* NOS - ie Western-production, from the mid-80s at the latest - valve is a different thing entirely.

The only really important thing is not to use a Russian or JJ valve in V2, because it's a cathode-follower. Everything else is down to taste and how much you want to spend.

Erskine

ICBM said:

Erskine said:

I did find a 90s Shuguang going for around £14 which may worth a gamble.

These are not "NOS" just because they're unused and twenty years old, and anyone trying to sell them as such is taking the piss. They're modern Chinese valves from the start of Chinese production when they weren't very good. I wouldn't pay any more than for a brand-new Shuguang. An *actual* NOS - ie Western-production, from the mid-80s at the latest - valve is a different thing entirely.

The only really important thing is not to use a Russian or JJ valve in V2, because it's a cathode-follower. Everything else is down to taste and how much you want to spend.

Thanks. They are definitely being advertised as NOS, but at the price they come no where near to the cost of the others.

Thanks for the advise regarding the Russian or JJ valves. I have used JJs in v2 in the past.

ICBM

Erskine said:

Thanks for the advise regarding the Russian or JJ valves. I have used JJs in v2 in the past.

The failure rate isn't as bad with JJs, but I have found a few with the usual cathode-to-filament breakdown. Of the modern valves I would only trust Chinese-made for these positions really. Any genuine NOS valve will be fine too.

Heartfeltdawn

It's been a while since I've had a valve amp but I went through a lot from cheapies to expensive ones. I really liked the L20H. Never liked TAD valves, JJs are OK. Controversially I really liked Harma valves from Watford Electronics in EL84 amps. A friend of mine who is very much a non-snob when it comes to gear found likewise in his VC30. 

shaunm

Honest question as I have a Laney Lionheart 20. How much difference is there between brands in terms of what you hear when you change valves? 

Is it as big a change as a speaker change?

Heartfeltdawn

shaunm said:

Honest question as I have a Laney Lionheart 20. How much difference is there between brands in terms of what you hear when you change valves? 

Is it as big a change as a speaker change?

It depends on the amp and the speaker. A fairly arse speaker, you won't hear much. I got into the valve swap game years ago and used a Cornell Romany Plus amp as my test bed as it's a pretty simple amp and well built. At the time I also had an AC15TBX to run in stereo with it. 

In the Cornell, you could hear the difference between using Cryo Harmas and TADs or JJ's as preamp valves. The JJs especially were really quite dark. The Harmas were a bit bright for that amp. Mullards were lovely but I actually settled on EHX valves as they weren't bright or dark, weren't as clear as the Harmas, and offered up a really nice balance between warm cleans when playing clean and distortion when the pedals went on. 

With the Vox, Harmas all the way. I actually found Mullards were too warm with that amp for my tastes going through the Celestion Blue speaker. 

So valve changes: not as big as a speaker change (then again, I tend to go for high wattage speakers. Never liekd Celestion Blues as much as a larger wattage Weber Silver Bell). But they can add something. 

ICBM

shaunm said:

Honest question as I have a Laney Lionheart 20. How much difference is there between brands in terms of what you hear when you change valves? 

Is it as big a change as a speaker change?

No, not remotely.

svejk

I have a tweed deluxe. Swapped the jensen p12 for a tayden great brit. Much meatier sound, way bigger difference than any valve changes - but they are very different speakers. Twice as heavy too. I got harma cyro valves once and convinced myself I could hear the difference. Not sure there was much in it!

shaunm

That is kind of my point. Is there anything in it or is it a case of changing them for the sake of it (obviously if you are changing them due to getting a better made or more durable set that’s different). 

Is it just something else for us to buy?

Erskine

shaunm said:

Honest question as I have a Laney Lionheart 20. How much difference is there between brands in terms of what you hear when you change valves? 

Is it as big a change as a speaker change?

There is some difference. I have not changed a speaker but would imagine that if you stuck in a Celestion Blue, you are going to notice it over the stock speaker.

I have used JJs in the preamp and did not like them. I found them harsh. So I went back to TADs, I also used a Mullard copy and found it more rounded, mellow, softer - however you would describe it? So, the difference is there but maybe not huge. I have always used TAD EL84s so can't comment on this. I could not be certain on this, but if you wanted to change the 'tone' of the amp noticeably, a valve switch may be limited. But others will be better placed to comment on that.

Heartfeltdawn

shaunm said:

That is kind of my point. Is there anything in it or is it a case of changing them for the sake of it (obviously if you are changing them due to getting a better made or more durable set that’s different). 

Is it just something else for us to buy?

Everything can be something else to buy. The tonal changes going from 9 to 11 gauge strings, the picks you use versus going with fingers alone, the type of cables you use (cheapies versus not cheapies), how often you restring, valkves, speakers, replacing a speaker with a higher or lower wattage version of the same speaker brand and type... it's all about how far down the rabbit hole you wish to go. 

Heartfeltdawn

Erskine said:

It is time to re-valve my Laney L20t and before going ahead and doing so I wondered if anyone had any advice on what valves to use. I have in the past either stuck with the TAD valves or tried JJ ECC83s, using a mix of a Mullard copy and JJs or TADs. in the pre-amp. I have always stuck with TAD EL84s.

I have read this article posted here in 2016 on re-valving advice for a Laney VC30 and thought the recommendations made by ICBM and others would also apply to my L20t. So, based on this I was thinking of trying the following from Karltone:

JJ EL84s
v1 - EH ECC83
v2/v3 - Shuguang 12AX7B/ECC83

The speaker in the amp is a 30watt Celestion G12H and the type of music I play is blues and blues/rock.

So, if anyone has any advice, feel free to chip in.

The question I'd ask is this: with your amp as it is, how does it sound and what are you wanting? 

Erskine

Heartfeltdawn said:

The question I'd ask is this: with your amp as it is, how does it sound and what are you wanting? 

Pretty much as I stated in the first post. I have no burning desire to change much but before gong ahead and buying like for like, I thought that I would seek advice. No harm in that, I don't think.

shaunm

Heartfeltdawn said:

shaunm said:

That is kind of my point. Is there anything in it or is it a case of changing them for the sake of it (obviously if you are changing them due to getting a better made or more durable set that’s different). 

Is it just something else for us to buy?

Everything can be something else to buy. The tonal changes going from 9 to 11 gauge strings, the picks you use versus going with fingers alone, the type of cables you use (cheapies versus not cheapies), how often you restring, valkves, speakers, replacing a speaker with a higher or lower wattage version of the same speaker brand and type... it's all about how far down the rabbit hole you wish to go. 

Very true. Maybe my ears are not in as good of a condition as others but in some of the things you’ve mentioned there I hear very little difference. String gauge - I’ve never noticed a tonal difference just a difference in feel (which can have an impact on tone). 

Perhaps valves are something to try for me

normula1

shaunm said:

Honest question as I have a Laney Lionheart 20. How much difference is there between brands in terms of what you hear when you change valves? 

Is it as big a change as a speaker change?

You can certainly hear different brands of EL84s in the Lionhearts but only really when you get the amp cranked up a little. The speaker will make far more difference.