Help - Multi Effects pedal through amp

paulhailes

Good day! Proper equipment noob here! I’m after the solution to be able use my Boss ME-70 multi effects pedal through an amp. Struggling to find any answers online, hence why I’ve turned to this forum and it’s users’ infinite wisdom.

I practice using my ME-70 with headphones plugged straight into it and love the sound I get from it, it’s not until now that I’ve needed this sound to be played through an amp! I have a Line 6 amp that I originally used for practice, tried plugging the ME-70 straight into the front of that and it sounded rubbish, even with clean amp settings. I’ve read somewhere that Line 6 amps are not good in conjunction with effects pedals, is that because even on clean settings they still use digital trickery to effect the sound? If so, what amp is a suitable alternative to be used with an ME-70? I.e an app with truly clean preamp settings.

What I have found is people mentioning putting the effects pedal into an amps effects loop, a feature my Line 6 does not have! but from what I can work out this will still create a poor sound, as the preamp will still be altering the input sound before it reaches the pedal. I want ideally to completely bipass (not use) the preamps settings, is this even possible? I’m beginning to think not! I’m assuming an effects pedal could not power a cabinet as isn’t that essentially what I want? The ME-70 as the head, plugged into a cabinet to create a stack? I have a feeling that is a completely noob outlook on it... Another protential solution I came across was the use of a PA speaker however I have never seen a live guitarists rig with this set-up which leads me to believe there is an alternative? 

I know im probably an optimist thinking I’ll be able to recreate the exact sound I get through headphones through the amp (I know that’s impossible) just want  a solution that still allows me to quickly change between patches and get a sound effected as little as possible by the amp. I’m willing to purchase additional equipment, I’m thinking it is simply my Line 6 which is the problem?

sorry for the essay, and thanks in advance for any help!

Emp_Fab

Playing through an amp, any amp, will always sound different to playing through headphones.  Every piece of gear colours the sound in its own way.  I’m wondering if what you are noticing is the switch from stereo to mono plus the likely frequency response difference between the headphones and the amp.  If it’s the stereo aspect you’re missing then an additional amp is the solution, albeit an expensive one.  Realistically though, you just have to spend ages tweaking all the settings on the pedal and amp to find a place where you’re as close as you can get it to your desired tone.

More knowledgable folk will be along shortly.

ecc83

First of all, the level from the ME-70 is likely to be much higher than a passive guitar voltage and is therefore overloading and distorting the L6 input, and not in a nice way!

Secondly, a headphone output is "stereo" and to feed a mono amp input the signals must be resistively 'summed'.

If you can solder I can tell you what to put "in the tin".

Dave.

Collings

ecc83 said:

First of all, the level from the ME-70 is likely to be much higher than a passive guitar voltage and is therefore overloading and distorting the L6 input, and not in a nice way!

Secondly, a headphone output is "stereo" and to feed a mono amp input the signals must be resistively 'summed'.

If you can solder I can tell you what to put "in the tin".

Dave.

The ME70 if used mono in front of an amp should use the LH output which is mono when used on its own.

stickyfiddle

I assume you are using the amp modelling in the ME70? That the section labelled "preamp" on the ME70

If that's the case then what's happening when you plug into the Line 6 is it's trying to add more amp modelling on top of that signal. 9 times out of 10 that will result in a muddy mess, as you've found. Not sure what L6 amp you have, but I assume probably some sort of Spider as that's the standard amp that has sold the most.

So you have 2 options: 

1 - you can switch off the preamp stuff in the ME70 and use the amp sounds in the Line6 amp you already have. You'll want to use an amp model in the Line 6 that is equivalent to the one you would have used in the ME70 in terms of gain level and general tone.  This may sound great, in which case you can stop already. If that doesn't get you what you want, keep going

2 - you need to plug your ME70 into a power amp and use its onboard preamp section. If your existing amp has an FX loop then you can use that; just plug the ME70 into the "FX Return" and use the master volume on the amp to control the overall volume.  

If you have no FX loop, then you'll need either a different amp that does have one, or a separate power amp and speakers.

EricTheWeary

Which Line 6 amp?

Lower end digital guitar amps aren’t designed to manage hotter signals going in. So, if the patches from your ME70 include any level of boost it’ll probably sound crap. You might find that if you play around with the levels on your patches so the output is closer to the unadulterated guitar it might be better. 

In practice what works through headphones and what works through an amp aren’t always the same thing. You could look at sorting new patches that work though the amp. Guitar amps, even budget digital ones, aren’t designed to be flat response make louder devices. They are intended to sound like guitar amps. Plug something like an MP3 player into your Line 6 and see how crap that sounds, that’s not a fault with the amp it’s just how it’s meant to sound. 

If if you are using the amp in order to play with others you might find you need to cut down on or change your patches anyway. More complex sounds that work great through headphones can be completely lost in a band context and tend to sound waspish. I think the ME70 includes amp modelling, although you could try the amp models on and off through the Line 6 but I’d guess they will generally sound better off. 

If it were me I’d try to work towards having the one set of patches for headphone use and a simpler set for using through the Line 6 - using it’s amp modelling and using effects only from the ME70. 

57Deluxe

You have to remaster your patches for the amp/type. For my BOSS ME-5 sets, I have a mastered set for amps and one for headphones. Also knowing how to do a quick 'on-the-fly' edit is useful, so get intimate with your FX

ICBM

 If you can't get a good sound with the main Left/Mono output of the ME-70 into the input of the Line6 set to the cleanest possible sound, probably with a fairly scooped EQ (bass and treble up, mid down) then you need a different amp. It's unlikely to be a level issue since the mono output of the ME-70 is guitar-level, but it may well be that the two just don't sound good together.

If you want to simply cleanly amplify the ME-70 and not use the sound of the main amp at all, any half-decent old solid-state analogue amp will work, possibly even a keyboard amp - these all tend to be cheap now. Peavey, Laney, Carlsbro, even Marshall all used to make amps like this which typically sell for £100 or less nowadays.

The alternative would be to use the headphone output of the ME-70 (which is speaker-emulated) into a powered monitor, which will actually give you the closest to the sound you're now getting through the headphones. The line-level input of a powered monitor should be fine with a headphone-level signal. You'll need a stereo-to-mono cable, most likely.

paulhailes

Holy cow! Could hardly keep up with the comments swamping in! Thank you! I'll work my way through responding to each...

paulhailes

Emp_Fab said:

Playing through an amp, any amp, will always sound different to playing through headphones.  Every piece of gear colours the sound in its own way.  I’m wondering if what you are noticing is the switch from stereo to mono plus the likely frequency response difference between the headphones and the amp.  If it’s the stereo aspect you’re missing then an additional amp is the solution, albeit an expensive one.  Realistically though, you just have to spend ages tweaking all the settings on the pedal and amp to find a place where you’re as close as you can get it to your desired tone.

More knowledgable folk will be along shortly.

I had never really thought about the switching between Mono and Stereo, to my untrained ear though, it sounds more like a problem with too much effects being used at once. I will though go into it with an open mind considering this change from mono to stereo. However like you and everyone else has touched on, I think its more the settings that need to be investigated.

Thanks!

paulhailes

ecc83 said:

First of all, the level from the ME-70 is likely to be much higher than a passive guitar voltage and is therefore overloading and distorting the L6 input, and not in a nice way!

Secondly, a headphone output is "stereo" and to feed a mono amp input the signals must be resistively 'summed'.

If you can solder I can tell you what to put "in the tin".

Dave.

Collings said:

ecc83 said:

First of all, the level from the ME-70 is likely to be much higher than a passive guitar voltage and is therefore overloading and distorting the L6 input, and not in a nice way!

Secondly, a headphone output is "stereo" and to feed a mono amp input the signals must be resistively 'summed'.

If you can solder I can tell you what to put "in the tin".

Dave.

The ME70 if used mono in front of an amp should use the LH output which is mono when used on its own.

Is there any way around this overloading/distorting? Sorry if this is obvious!

During trialing the amp with the pedal I did used the LH output to create a mono output (at least I hope I did, it is labelled...) so i'm assuming this functionality sufficiently 'sums' the tone. 

paulhailes

stickyfiddle said:

I assume you are using the amp modelling in the ME70? That the section labelled "preamp" on the ME70

If that's the case then what's happening when you plug into the Line 6 is it's trying to add more amp modelling on top of that signal. 9 times out of 10 that will result in a muddy mess, as you've found. Not sure what L6 amp you have, but I assume probably some sort of Spider as that's the standard amp that has sold the most.

So you have 2 options: 

1 - you can switch off the preamp stuff in the ME70 and use the amp sounds in the Line6 amp you already have. You'll want to use an amp model in the Line 6 that is equivalent to the one you would have used in the ME70 in terms of gain level and general tone.  This may sound great, in which case you can stop already. If that doesn't get you what you want, keep going

2 - you need to plug your ME70 into a power amp and use its onboard preamp section. If your existing amp has an FX loop then you can use that; just plug the ME70 into the "FX Return" and use the master volume on the amp to control the overall volume.  

If you have no FX loop, then you'll need either a different amp that does have one, or a separate power amp and speakers.

You're correct twice good job! The patches that have been created did indeed use the ME-70's preamp section. When I did create them which was a while back, I didn't have really any understanding of what a preamp was, now you've mentioned it that does make sense! And yes I do have a spider a IV, which does not have a FX loop, however I'm willing to purchase a new amp if your step 2 is the way to go. 

Just want to make sure I follow on step 2... So purchasing a new amp and plugging the ME-70 into the FX return will essentially bypass the amps preamp? Because of this I can use the ME-70's preamp section once again, and the next step of the chain is just sending that signal to the power amp section of the amp? 

I'll be sure to try step 1 first though before rushing out and buying another amp!

ICBM

paulhailes said:

Is there any way around this overloading/distorting? Sorry if this is obvious!

During trialing the amp with the pedal I did used the LH output to create a mono output (at least I hope I did, it is labelled...) so i'm assuming this functionality sufficiently 'sums' the tone. 

Yes, it does. The normal Left/Mono output will not overload the amp if you keep the ME-70's volume down to a sensible level. Don't use the headphone output into a guitar amp, not only will it probably overload the input as Dave said, it will also have speaker emulation on it which you don't want if you're then going through a guitar amp speaker, since that will essentially double the result and overdo it.

Also, if you do have an amp with an effects loop, you should not put the ME-70 *in* the loop. (ie guitar > amp > FX send > ME-70 > FX return.) That can cause feedback and potentially damage the amp, although this is quite rare. What to do is bypass the amp's preamp by going simply guitar > ME-70 > FX return. That will avoid creating a feedback loop and will also probably sound better.

paulhailes

EricTheWeary said:

Which Line 6 amp?

Lower end digital guitar amps aren’t designed to manage hotter signals going in. So, if the patches from your ME70 include any level of boost it’ll probably sound crap. You might find that if you play around with the levels on your patches so the output is closer to the unadulterated guitar it might be better. 

In practice what works through headphones and what works through an amp aren’t always the same thing. You could look at sorting new patches that work though the amp. Guitar amps, even budget digital ones, aren’t designed to be flat response make louder devices. They are intended to sound like guitar amps. Plug something like an MP3 player into your Line 6 and see how crap that sounds, that’s not a fault with the amp it’s just how it’s meant to sound. 

If if you are using the amp in order to play with others you might find you need to cut down on or change your patches anyway. More complex sounds that work great through headphones can be completely lost in a band context and tend to sound waspish. I think the ME70 includes amp modelling, although you could try the amp models on and off through the Line 6 but I’d guess they will generally sound better off. 

If it were me I’d try to work towards having the one set of patches for headphone use and a simpler set for using through the Line 6 - using it’s amp modelling and using effects only from the ME70. 

57Deluxe said:

You have to remaster your patches for the amp/type. For my BOSS ME-5 sets, I have a mastered set for amps and one for headphones. Also knowing how to do a quick 'on-the-fly' edit is useful, so get intimate with your FX

As in previous comment, I have a Spider IV (should have put that in first post - my bad!). I think I was a bit naive when I was first playing around with my pedal into my amp thinking you could get the same sound through headphones and through an amp but why the hell would you be able to?! Because of the points you've made, that why lol!

When I've 'fixed' the muddy/waspish sound i'm getting, hopefully by using one of the two steps highlighted by stickyfiddle i'll create additional patches for both headphones and through an amp both with and without the ME-70's amp modelling (on with headphones and off with the amp). 

I'm really not that familiar with any of the FX, I can see you all cringing! I'm going to spend a good deal of time doing some proper research and playing around to fully understand how the tone is coloured with different effects.

P.S. I have no idea why that's come up as a link...
 

paulhailes

ICBM said:

 If you can't get a good sound with the main Left/Mono output of the ME-70 into the input of the Line6 set to the cleanest possible sound, probably with a fairly scooped EQ (bass and treble up, mid down) then you need a different amp. It's unlikely to be a level issue since the mono output of the ME-70 is guitar-level, but it may well be that the two just don't sound good together.

If you want to simply cleanly amplify the ME-70 and not use the sound of the main amp at all, any half-decent old solid-state analogue amp will work, possibly even a keyboard amp - these all tend to be cheap now. Peavey, Laney, Carlsbro, even Marshall all used to make amps like this which typically sell for £100 or less nowadays.

The alternative would be to use the headphone output of the ME-70 (which is speaker-emulated) into a powered monitor, which will actually give you the closest to the sound you're now getting through the headphones. The line-level input of a powered monitor should be fine with a headphone-level signal. You'll need a stereo-to-mono cable, most likely.

I did try having the Line 6 set to the 'clean' preset and it still sounded poor, I did not though have a scooped EQ though I just had everything including the bass, treble and mid turned all the way down. I'll try the stated settings though. That's what someone had said on a different article, that Line 6's are poor with Multi FX pedals, which may just be the case. 

I'll have a look at a these amps manufacturers/types if I need to go down the route of a new amp. I have tried it through a computer when playing with audacity and you're right, the sound was pretty darn identical to what I was hearing through my headphones!

paulhailes

ICBM said:

paulhailes said:

Is there any way around this overloading/distorting? Sorry if this is obvious!

During trialing the amp with the pedal I did used the LH output to create a mono output (at least I hope I did, it is labelled...) so i'm assuming this functionality sufficiently 'sums' the tone. 

Yes, it does. The normal Left/Mono output will not overload the amp if you keep the ME-70's volume down to a sensible level. Don't use the headphone output into a guitar amp, not only will it probably overload the input as Dave said, it will also have speaker emulation on it which you don't want if you're then going through a guitar amp speaker, since that will essentially double the result and overdo it.

Also, if you do have an amp with an effects loop, you should not put the ME-70 *in* the loop. (ie guitar > amp > FX send > ME-70 > FX return.) That can cause feedback and potentially damage the amp, although this is quite rare. What to do is bypass the amp's preamp by going simply guitar > ME-70 > FX return. That will avoid creating a feedback loop and will also probably sound better.

That all makes perfect sense! I'll be sure to not put the ME-70 in the loop if I do get an amp with an FX loop, i'll be trying the other stuff first but I'm kinda expecting i'll need to get a new amp! Thanks!

Marktigere1

I've used an ME-70 into the front of a Valve amp (Blackheart HD15) in a band and it sounded great.

I switched off the preamp section, used the EQ on the amp and then set distortion/modulation etc on the ME-70 to taste.

The headphone out switches on a cabinet simulation when you plug into it so if you do decide to use a PA from the L/R outputs, you need to plug in a headphone jack to switch the cab sim on. Or use a 3.5mm stereo cable and plug that into the PA.

The ME-70 is a very underestimated unit and I still use mine which I bought new in 2009.

Ta

ICBM

paulhailes said:

I did try having the Line 6 set to the 'clean' preset and it still sounded poor, I did not though have a scooped EQ though I just had everything including the bass, treble and mid turned all the way down.

Ah, that might explain it - that really won't sound very good. If anything, all full up might sound better .

Start with them all halfway, or slightly scooped (bass and treble a bit above half, mid a bit below) and adjust from there if it still doesn't sound right. Set the master volume up high - maybe even full, if that doesn't produce too much hiss - and the gain as low as possible to get the level right. Try it with the guitar straight into the amp first, then set the ME-70's output level to match that - that way you'll be sure you aren't overloading it.

paulhailes said:

That's what someone had said on a different article, that Line 6's are poor with Multi FX pedals, which may just be the case.

I certainly find that stacking one lot of modelling into another often causes problems. Essentially, the second modeller is expecting a fairly clean guitar signal, or at most an analogue overdrive sound, so it often doesn't seem to respond as predictably to something more complex. Using the cleanest possible sound on the amp should hopefully stop that.

paulhailes

Marktigere1 said:

I've used an ME-70 into the front of a Valve amp (Blackheart HD15) in a band and it sounded great.

I switched off the preamp section, used the EQ on the amp and then set distortion/modulation etc on the ME-70 to taste.

The headphone out switches on a cabinet simulation when you plug into it so if you do decide to use a PA from the L/R outputs, you need to plug in a headphone jack to switch the cab sim on. Or use a 3.5mm stereo cable and plug that into the PA.

The ME-70 is a very underestimated unit and I still use mine which I bought new in 2009.

Ta

That does fill me with confidence! I knew there would be a way around, it's just my knowledge wasn't/isn't doing the ME-70 justice. I'll definitely be turning the ME-70 preamp off and going from there. Thanks for the tip off also if I decide to go down the PA route, however i'm pretty keen on getting it to sound how I want through an amp, now I know it's possible albeit with a bit of playing and research! 

Thanks.

paulhailes

ICBM said:

Ah, that might explain it - that really won't sound very good. If anything, all full up might sound better .

Start with them all halfway, or slightly scooped (bass and treble a bit above half, mid a bit below) and adjust from there if it still doesn't sound right. Set the master volume up high - maybe even full, if that doesn't produce too much hiss - and the gain as low as possible to get the level right. Try it with the guitar straight into the amp first, then set the ME-70's output level to match that - that way you'll be sure you aren't overloading it.

I certainly find that stacking one lot of modelling into another often causes problems. Essentially, the second modeller is expecting a fairly clean guitar signal, or at most an analogue overdrive sound, so it often doesn't seem to respond as predictably to something more complex. Using the cleanest possible sound on the amp should hopefully stop that.

Like I said previously, my knowledge was definitely hampering the outcome by the sounds of it! I'll give these settings a bash along with the other suggestions and i'm sure all will be good!  

Thanks!