Line 6 Helix Sounds Terrible?

Digital_Igloo

impmann said:
Seriously, Line6... you make a product that needs headphones that are a specific impedance? And it sounds shit when you don't? FFS, who signed *that* off...

Copy/pasted from our own forum (emphasis mine):


Those ATs are 38 Ohm? That could explain it. Low impedance headphones are designed to provide ample volume when listening to devices with relatively wimpy headphone amps, like mobile phones and iPods. Another user elsewhere expressed concern with his Beyer DT990s (which come in three variants—32 Ohm, 250 Ohm, and 600 Ohm) and I'm willing to bet his are 32 Ohm.

I'm actually surprised your Sonys sound any better, as they're even lower, at 24 Ohm.

Helix's headphone amp is LOUD; it's designed to drive high-impedance studio headphones to stage volumes. Low impedance headphones distort way faster, fatigue your ears, and at a high enough volume, can damage your hearing. With Helix you could conceivably split the headphone output to two pairs of 200-300 Ohm cans/IEMs and drive both over the sound of a drummer (and adjust respective levels via MIDI CC control of path output blocks). My band does this now.

Personally, I use Sennheiser HD600s (300 Ohm), and before those, the HD580s (same). Also have a bunch of Sony 7506s around, but they're 63 Ohm and harsh-sounding already, even with an iPod. I also keep a pair of Sennheiser HD280 Pros (64 Ohm) at work and they're pretty boxy sounding, but if I can get a mix to sound good on them, it'll sound good anywhere. I treat them like wearable Yamaha NS10s, if those NS10s were powered by an Alesis RA100 instead of a Bryston. Wouldn't want to construct tones with them.


And...


A well-known recording engineer friend and I were talking a while back and he mentioned that some older professional recording gear might get worse reviews today simply because headphone impedances have been dropping steadily. Back then, there was a much better chance that any over-the-ear headphones would be high enough impedance to sound great on gear at the time. Now it's all about blowing kids' eardrums out with their $200 Beats that are designed to push enough bass from a phone's puny headphone amp.

Helix is professional gear—designed for professionals—and we weren't about to dumb down our headphone amp because everyone happens to have white earbuds in some drawer in their house. Feel free to use consumer cans, but don't expect it to sound great.

BTW, a lower-impedance doesn't necessarily mean worse specs; it simply means the cans were designed for a different purpose. There are amazing-sounding, Über-expensive low-impedance cans that sound amazing on phones but terrible on pro gear. And there are amazing-sounding, Über-expensive high-impedance cans that sound amazing on pro gear but terrible on phones.

BintyTwanger77

I tried my best to like the Helix, I really did. Plus is definitely how stupidly easy it is to use and set up patches. The effects just didn’t do it for me at all, so happily sticking with valve amps and separate pedals.

revsorg

Digital_Igloo said:

TL;DR: Make your own presets. Then they'll suck for everyone but you.

One line of thought is that if you buy presets someone else has made then you're something like 90% of the way there and someone who knows how to get the best out of the Helix has done most of the legwork for you.  Of course it's the lazy approach - you're putting off learning how the Helix works.  I've spent hours fiddling around with Helix Native and there are still some aspects of the signal chain that elude me.  Maybe I should have bought less presets and spent more time learning how to configure them myself, but there are only so many hours in the day.

John_A

revsorg said:

Digital_Igloo said:

TL;DR: Make your own presets. Then they'll suck for everyone but you.

One line of thought is that if you buy presets someone else has made then you're something like 90% of the way there and someone who knows how to get the best out of the Helix has done most of the legwork for you.  Of course it's the lazy approach - you're putting off learning how the Helix works.  I've spent hours fiddling around with Helix Native and there are still some aspects of the signal chain that elude me.  Maybe I should have bought less presets and spent more time learning how to configure them myself, but there are only so many hours in the day.

How many 'presets' does anyone really need, it's not like when using a traditional rig you'd pull the plexi off stage and drag on a deluxe reverb mid-set.  I have one preset based on a jcm800 that I use for 95% of our set, I read the Helix much as I would a real rig, I tinker with it and over time it sounds better and better

I have a few more specialist presets for specific songs like U2 stuff, but no one would notice if I didn't use them

Jetfire

So speaking of headphones, we have wireless in ears but my headphones need upgrading. If was to use them via the headphone port in the house, woukd the impedance thing be something to think about when im picking them?

dindude

Digital_Igloo said:

siremoon said:

If everyone judged Helix by the presets they would not have sold very many, even the product manager has said more than once that they "suck".

That's me, but it's not just Helix's presets that suck. All. Presets. Suck.© In every box. If you just so happen to find a preset that doesn't suck, it's likely because it was created by someone with a very similar guitar, pickups, impedance load, strings, playback system, playback volume, location of their ears with regard to said playback system, listening environment (including temperature and humidity!), tempo, playing style, genre, *and* music sensibilities. And even then, that same preset will likely suck the next day when one or more of those things changes.

Expecting any factory preset to sound good across more than a tiny percentage of literally trillions of permutations is a lesson in futility. That said, we have some ideas, but none of them have anything to do with "making great presets," just like you can't expect Tinder to "make great dates."

TL;DR: Make your own presets. Then they'll suck for everyone but you.

Kinda get it, kinda think it’s a bit of a cop out. If you buy a single channel Valve Amp, it’s “tuned” to sound good despite most of the things you quote above being variable. 

Sporky

I've tried and heard lots of single channel valve amps that I thought sounded crap. Honky ones, boxy ones, farty ones... 

dindude

Sporky said:

I've tried and heard lots of single channel valve amps that I thought sounded crap. Honky ones, boxy ones, farty ones... 

The difference with modelling presets of course is that you get a poorer version of these amps that you don’t like.

John_A

dindude said:

Digital_Igloo said:

siremoon said:

If everyone judged Helix by the presets they would not have sold very many, even the product manager has said more than once that they "suck".

That's me, but it's not just Helix's presets that suck. All. Presets. Suck.© In every box. If you just so happen to find a preset that doesn't suck, it's likely because it was created by someone with a very similar guitar, pickups, impedance load, strings, playback system, playback volume, location of their ears with regard to said playback system, listening environment (including temperature and humidity!), tempo, playing style, genre, *and* music sensibilities. And even then, that same preset will likely suck the next day when one or more of those things changes.

Expecting any factory preset to sound good across more than a tiny percentage of literally trillions of permutations is a lesson in futility. That said, we have some ideas, but none of them have anything to do with "making great presets," just like you can't expect Tinder to "make great dates."

TL;DR: Make your own presets. Then they'll suck for everyone but you.

Kinda get it, kinda think it’s a bit of a cop out. If you buy a single channel Valve Amp, it’s “tuned” to sound good despite most of the things you quote above being variable. 

If you buy a single channel valve amp, set the controls without using your ears, stick an sm58 right in the middle of the speaker, don't eq it properly and listen to it through shit headphones, it'll sound shit

ypu can get good and bad sounds out of most things, with a modern modern modeller there are a lot of options so it's easier to get a bad sound and blame the gear

it didn't happen the first week I got it, but my sound using the Helix is the best I've had in my whole time playing, and that includes a lot of great amps

Sporky

dindude said:

Sporky said:

I've tried and heard lots of single channel valve amps that I thought sounded crap. Honky ones, boxy ones, farty ones... 

The difference with modelling presets of course is that you get a poorer version of these amps that you don’t like.

Yeah, but also a bazillion much better sounding amps. And you can tweak the crappy ones much more than you can the real thing. 

gibsongretschfan

If Helix sounds terrible then it’s user error. 

If you prefer something else then that’s fine

if you’re using the wrong ohm headphones then see my first point

pintspiller

Our guitarist has a Helix and he plays rheoufh pa rather than amps. Sounds so much better than he did with the Boss multifx

sgosden

Digital_Igloo said:

   That said, we have some ideas, but none of them have anything to do with "making great presets," just like you can't expect Tinder to "make great dates."

Aiy, I've plugged my helix is some questionable places too, after a brief exchange of messages and meeting in a dark club...

firepaulmusic

Beexter said:

I've had the AX8 for a while now and it's my main gigging rig (through a DXR10). I really like it and think it sounds terrific. It's the most I've ever spent on a single piece of gear and I wasn't able to try it before purchasing. All I had to go on was YouTube and it was between the Helix and AX8 (Helix LT hadn't been released)
I consistently preferred the sounds of the AX8 and wasn't disappointed when it arrived and still love it after owning it for some time.

Having said that, I have recently purchased the Helix HX Effects to use with my regular amp set up and the user interface is absolutely brilliant. The effects sound good and everything is as easy to tweak on the fly as it would be with a "traditional" pedalboard and the form factor is great. Obviously there are no amp models though. I still prefer the effects in the AX8 and the Fractal has greater deep editing possibilities, although I still have to do most editing via the software, unlike the HX Effects. 
If you need a headphone out though, neither the AX8 or HX Effects have one.

Me too, AX8 through DXR10, great live rig!

Teetonetal

gibsongretschfan said:

If Helix sounds terrible then it’s user error. 

If you prefer something else then that’s fine

if you’re using the wrong ohm headphones then see my first point

Not if you are demiong helix in a shop, trying to find out if it's for you and going for the headphone out as that's what you think you will use.

That's exactly what I did and it sounded shit. It took a very kind shop lending me one before I had enough time with it to work out how to make it sound good through headphones. I think it's incredible, but depending on your use case, it's not always instant win.

gibsongretschfan

Teetonetal said:

gibsongretschfan said:

If Helix sounds terrible then it’s user error. 

If you prefer something else then that’s fine

if you’re using the wrong ohm headphones then see my first point

Not if you are demiong helix in a shop, trying to find out if it's for you and going for the headphone out as that's what you think you will use.

That's exactly what I did and it sounded shit. It took a very kind shop lending me one before I had enough time with it to work out how to make it sound good through headphones. I think it's incredible, but depending on your use case, it's not always instant win.

There needs to be some buyer responsibility though. As simple as the user interface is, Helix and other modellers are very complicated bits of gear. Luckily the internet is absolutely full of advice, experiences and manuals. Doing some research before going to try something like this is an absolute must and would very quickly have turned up the headphone amp impedance issue (well, it isn’t an issue but you know what I mean)

if all all else fails I have one rule about gear I either can’t play first or don’t have 4 months to learn before I buy:

did is someone else make it sound good?

if the answer is yes then I’ll be able to make it sound good

meltedbuzzbox

gibsongretschfan said:

Teetonetal said:

gibsongretschfan said:

If Helix sounds terrible then it’s user error. 

If you prefer something else then that’s fine

if you’re using the wrong ohm headphones then see my first point

Not if you are demiong helix in a shop, trying to find out if it's for you and going for the headphone out as that's what you think you will use.

That's exactly what I did and it sounded shit. It took a very kind shop lending me one before I had enough time with it to work out how to make it sound good through headphones. I think it's incredible, but depending on your use case, it's not always instant win.

There needs to be some buyer responsibility though. As simple as the user interface is, Helix and other modellers are very complicated bits of gear. Luckily the internet is absolutely full of advice, experiences and manuals. Doing some research before going to try something like this is an absolute must and would very quickly have turned up the headphone amp impedance issue (well, it isn’t an issue but you know what I mean)

if all all else fails I have one rule about gear I either can’t play first or don’t have 4 months to learn before I buy:

did is someone else make it sound good?

if the answer is yes then I’ll be able to make it sound good

do you need to go through that level of faff to try a pedal or an amp?
No you don't. 

Its so easy to dismiss/insult someones opinion by claiming user error. 

hubobulous

@gibsongretschfan - got to agree. By its very nature the Helix is a complicated piece of kit. It’s a mistake to think that an excellent UI means immediate gratification I think. For me, the brilliance of the UI is truly realised when you understand the tweaks required to get the sounds you want.

Of course, the UI means that diving in is made massively easier, but I agree that when spending cash on a piece of kit like this, you need to invest time.

Another unit similar in terms of requiring patience is the SY300. Once I’ve got my head around that and it’s in a Helix loop, I’ll be quite excited to see what I can come up with.

gearaddict

Digital_Igloo said:

it's not just Helix's presets that suck. All. Presets. Suck.© In every box.

That has been my experience too until recently when I picked up a Digitech GSP1101 - the factory presets are pretty much useable straight out of the box. It's like they just haven't been messed with all that much. Just saying.

hubobulous

meltedbuzzbox said:

gibsongretschfan said:

Teetonetal said:

gibsongretschfan said:

If Helix sounds terrible then it’s user error. 

If you prefer something else then that’s fine

if you’re using the wrong ohm headphones then see my first point

Not if you are demiong helix in a shop, trying to find out if it's for you and going for the headphone out as that's what you think you will use.

That's exactly what I did and it sounded shit. It took a very kind shop lending me one before I had enough time with it to work out how to make it sound good through headphones. I think it's incredible, but depending on your use case, it's not always instant win.

There needs to be some buyer responsibility though. As simple as the user interface is, Helix and other modellers are very complicated bits of gear. Luckily the internet is absolutely full of advice, experiences and manuals. Doing some research before going to try something like this is an absolute must and would very quickly have turned up the headphone amp impedance issue (well, it isn’t an issue but you know what I mean)

if all all else fails I have one rule about gear I either can’t play first or don’t have 4 months to learn before I buy:

did is someone else make it sound good?

if the answer is yes then I’ll be able to make it sound good

do you need to go through that level of faff to try a pedal or an amp?
No you don't. 

Its so easy to dismiss/insult someones opinion by claiming user error. 

For something like the Phase90, no. But for the H9, Timeline, Big Sky, Echosystem, Nemesis, anything by Chase Bliss, etc I’d argue the answer is yes.

Perhaps not on the amp front - I agree they are immediately easier to tweak, but a little time with the Helix gets you into the same sort of speed.