Why are so many modern guitar amps so middy and muddy?

jonnyburgo

I don’t gig but have had many amps at home level and my favourite has been a Vox vt40x which I wasn’t expecting, the Fender models are marvellous, fat bottom and sparkly top. Obviously not valve though. When I did gig I used a Peavey Renown 212 now that could cut through a 5ft thick stone wall!

ICBM

jellybelly said:

Philtre said:

Except one can hear the high end in an amp that is not dark when A/B comparing.

Yeah you can hear it, you can tell there’s more of  a particular frequency, but what might sound bright and clear to you might be piercing and obnoxious to a 20-something or someone who’s really looked after their hearing. 

My point is essentially that most people on here aren’t either particularly young or particularly likely not to have damaged their hearing at some point.

If they’re aiming amps at younger players (arguably Blackstar and the fender Bassbreakers are) then they might find their target market wants less high end. 

I have - like all of us - lost some of my top-end hearing, but not that much. I've always liked the same sort of sound since I was a teenager... when I use any of the amps I used back then I set them the same as I did back then, and they sound the same to me.

There's a really big difference between any vintage amp and the current generation of muddy amps.

jonnyburgo said:

When I did gig I used a Peavey Renown 212 now that could cut through a 5ft thick stone wall!

It always makes me laugh when people talk about 'unforgiving' valve amps... try gigging with a Renown right behind you on a riser and you won't ever think any valve amp is unforgiving ever again .

AndyJP

Playing devils advocate on the Victory V40 here... It really does cut nicely in a band, have used one live.  Also watched another player use one recently and it cut like mustard

jonnyburgo

ICBM said:

jellybelly said:

Philtre said:

Except one can hear the high end in an amp that is not dark when A/B comparing.

Yeah you can hear it, you can tell there’s more of  a particular frequency, but what might sound bright and clear to you might be piercing and obnoxious to a 20-something or someone who’s really looked after their hearing. 

My point is essentially that most people on here aren’t either particularly young or particularly likely not to have damaged their hearing at some point.

If they’re aiming amps at younger players (arguably Blackstar and the fender Bassbreakers are) then they might find their target market wants less high end. 

I have - like all of us - lost some of my top-end hearing, but not that much. I've always liked the same sort of sound since I was a teenager... when I use any of the amps I used back then I set them the same as I did back then, and they sound the same to me.

There's a really big difference between any vintage amp and the current generation of muddy amps.

jonnyburgo said:

When I did gig I used a Peavey Renown 212 now that could cut through a 5ft thick stone wall!

It always makes me laugh when people talk about 'unforgiving' valve amps... try gigging with a Renown right behind you on a riser and you won't ever think any valve amp is unforgiving ever again .

As I remember it was the very definition of “CLANG!”

Winny_Pooh

Guitar speakers don't reproduce many highs above 10khz, so if you find your amps getting too dark as you age then you have issues!

Sassafras

I blame heavy metal.
In fact, heavy metal is the root of all evil.

steven70

...

RandallFlagg

i prefer a thick warmer tone over a edgy too bright tone.  

Eric Clapton didn't get lost in the mix with his 'woman tone' on Sunshine of Your Love with his SG tones controls rolled right back and nor did John Lennon didn't get lost in the mix on Get Back on what sounds like his Casino neck pickup with the tone rolled right back.

Paul Weller started to sound a lot better in The Jam as he rolled back the treble on All Mod Cons compared to his earlier tones.

ICBM

jonnyburgo said:

As I remember it was the very definition of “CLANG!”

If you did accidentally 'clang' a note it was like someone hitting a steel rail with a sledgehammer right behind your head!

There is absolutely nothing that will improve your picking control like playing through one at gig volume .

Sassafras

steven70 said:

I remember seeing a Phil Hilbourne workshop at one of the Guitarist shows sometime in the 80s. Man could play! But deafeningly loud and a top end to loosen your fillings. Me and my mate were joking he probably thought he had a nice round tone on account of his hearing being shot to pieces. Seemed funny back then... 

I've got a Phil Hilbourne sig treble booster made by Thundertomate. It's my favourite TB because it can be set to boost or cut all frequencies.

March

ICBM said:

dilbert said:

Trace Elliott Speed Twin C50. Superb build

lol

Apart from a tendency for the main PCB to catch fire, anyway...

dilbert said:

Philtre said:

Victory V40.

How to remove the dark blanket?

1. Treble at 3 o'clock, Bass at 9 o'clock

2. Voice II on

3. Master volume at 2 o'clock

4. Both power tubes on

5. Pedals in front (with a buffer) with treble up

Or....

1. Get a HRD

1. I did!

Though I never had a V40, I had a Trace Elliott Speed Twin C50. Superb build and features but I was on the verge of manic depression after every band practice, the sound was that sodding flat. I was in raptures when I got my HRDIII from @photek, to whom I'm eternally grateful), lovely top end from the first note after all those years of thinking it was me  

Actually, my C30's lacks a bit of sparkle as well but at least the tone knobs work. 

Most of the Speed Twin combo's came with G12-75's installed which when paired with this amp produced a very dark tone. The 2-12 combo I had benefited from being retrofitted with a pair of Celestion/Mesa Black Shadow speakers. Over the last twenty years I've owned three and ran them regularly (C100 combo, H50 head and H100) - in fact I still own the H100 and regularly "fire" it up - never had one burst into flames though.

clarkefan

March said:

Most of the Speed Twin combo's came with G12-75's installed which when paired with this amp produced a very dark tone.

Do you mean G12T-75s?  Odd if so, the last thing those speakers are known for is dark anything. 

March

clarkefan said:

March said:

Most of the Speed Twin combo's came with G12-75's installed which when paired with this amp produced a very dark tone.

Do you mean G12T-75s?  Odd if so, the last thing those speakers are known for is dark anything. 

Those are the blighters. Those speakers in tandem with the C100 I owned led to an incredibly dark tone. Super smooth though. The Black Shadows totally opened up the sound of the amp. I’m currently using that amp into a Bogner cab with Scumback M75LD’s in it which is proving to be a nice combination. 

ICBM

Smooth and dark is the last thing G12T-75s sound like - they’re known for being quite scooped and buzzy. The Mesa Celestion 90s are a very big, bold sounding speaker though, and more efficient.

crunchman

On the high end hearing front, if you have lost frequencies above 8kHz or so, I'm not sure how much effect that will have.  Most guitar amps/speakers probably aren't putting out much at those kind of frequencies.

ICBM

crunchman said:

On the high end hearing front, if you have lost frequencies above 8kHz or so, I'm not sure how much effect that will have.  Most guitar amps/speakers probably aren't putting out much at those kind of frequencies.

You'd be surprised - the amps especially are, and the speakers produce more than you'd expect... not a huge amount, but it's the difference that counts I think. Having had a bit of discussion with @ecc83, I think this is the exact problem, or at least part of it, with Blackstars. The frequency response of the HT-20 power section is not unlike that of a guitar speaker in fact - with the result that it's like running a speaker-emulated signal through a guitar amp and speaker... overkill.

mixolyd

I remember the early days of Blackstar when the guitar mags were shilling them to the max.  I eventually got the chance to plug into one of the low wattage HT’s and couldn’t believe how unlike a real amp the experience was: unresponsive, dire cleans, blanket and just bluegh.  I hadn’t spent a dime and still felt cheated.

Later tried one of their TVP’s and it was great fun - though that may have been down to it being the big two speaker one.  Of course I didn’t buy it, I’m not crazy!

PolarityMan

Does anyone have a link of the muddy tones theyre talking about?

Cos to me the mud is in the low mids nor up at fucking 8k

ICBM

PolarityMan said:

Does anyone have a link of the muddy tones theyre talking about?

Cos to me the mud is in the low mids nor up at fucking 8k

Audio starts about 4'30".

Also some in this



6'20"-7'20" or so.



Even with the treble boost on it's still far too dull.

All of them sound like what should be bright amps, under a pile of blankets.

PolarityMan

Well in the bassbreaker one this mic is certainly going to be making that sound darker than you'd expect, its pointed about halfway along the speaker cone slightly off axis.